You are nowhere to be found | Peaks, troughs, and the end of suffering (Full Satsang) [public]

NRight. So if we take stock of this moment, actually not that much going on. Any moment, you can actually — if you just observe what is going on right now — there's just the voice. There's the stream of words. There's the image. There's the feeling, sensation.

But you can kind of contain all of that. It's obviously local. It's limited. And if you take that and then you compare it to what the sages, the wisdom teachings are talking about, there's a discrepancy. They're talking about universal, impersonal.

Whereas when you're taking stock, what you're finding is local, limited, individual. So first we admit that yes, that is the starting point — but then what is the question the sage is posing? He's saying who are you? What exactly are you in this?

And so that actually helps because the scope is well defined now. When you do that stock take, you found all the things you need to inspect. It's not a long list. It's four or five skandhas, the aggregates which the Buddha checks off — you're not this, not this, not this. So when you take stock you see what's in the moment, and of course none of that is you in particular. Nothing specific can be you.

And what that is showing you is there is a basic incompatibility on how the mind conceives of you and whatever you actually are. Because when the mind looks for you according to the question who are you? What are you? And in that moment, the stock you've taken — the mind will try to find an object it can call you. It wants to look for something specific: this is what I can call my subject, the one who observes me, as opposed to all the other subjects. And so the thought-based process of trying to find yourself will always fail, because the criteria is wrong. It's looking for an object, whereas the question is about the subject. And any particular object we've already taken stock — it's just not you.

You take stock. Yes, it's quite clear all this is local and limited. But what in this is you? And that is very different to whatever the mind conceived of as a person, as a subject, as a specific you. You are actually the context of whatever is in that moment. To be aware is the context. The Awareness is required for whatever appears.

It's very different to the mind's categories of things. So when you're taking stock, there's all the different categories of things. But Awareness is none of those categories. It doesn't fit in them. But it is the context for all of them. And so even by taking that limited local moment, there's now this path to find out what is that global, universal, impersonal true Self in that moment.

All right, let's do Q&A. Yes.

QYeah, I was just going to add — when you do exactly what you said, start from your Reality and then question that, the mind also gets more conditioned to find it easier. The mind itself at some point arrives at nothing that checks out other than the Awareness. So it does — I don't know — something in the mind is also like the touch of Emptiness is in the mind itself. Something in the mind is able to get you to that point. I don't know how far along, but it does to some extent.

NBecause the mind is completely certain that it is being observed. That is already there. The mind knows I'm being watched. But the only question to the mind is it has always assumed it's being watched by an individual self. Yeah, a subject specific to that mind.

And then when it looks and it categorizes everything, it finds, oh, none of these things that I categorize are a subject. And the subject which is obviously present — you were aware of this. The mind going through these categories, you realize of course I am the one observing the mind — not as a thing, not as a nothing; there's no individual trait in the subject.

So the mind actually — and if you have a background with religion and so on — then you have two levels of subjects. The individual subject the mind is convinced of, and then the higher subject, God. It also believes God is observing me. And so the inquiry can collapse those two. Well, there's no individual subject. And then the phrase "God is watching" — it takes a different meaning. It's actually a definition of God. It's not an idea that God is watching. It's not based on faith, but I see it like someone at some point understood and this was the definition of God. God is watching. Not you, not a personal thing, and it is not the mind watching.

The Reality, the God Reality, is watching the mind and all minds. Yes. Sorry. He's still on mute if he's speaking.

QHi, Nabeel. Can you hear me?

NYep.

QHi.

NOh, yeah.

QSo when there's no mind, what's left behind?

NWhen there's no mind — depends who's talking about it. [laughter] When I say no mind, it means there's actually absolutely nothing. No experience, nothing to observe. So there's no experience at all. Mind is a loose term. So whenever there's experience, then we can say mind, because the whole bag of items in that moment, that stock take — that is mind.

QI see. Can I tell you my experience?

NSure.

QSo my own mind — basically the mind that I developed for all years, that chatters, talks, trying to take responsibility of my life, my adult life — one day I had my self-image collapse. That mind just got collapsed because I notice that it's wrong most of the time. My mind — when I listen to my mind, I find out that most of the things are going wrong. So after having the self-image collapsed, what is left behind was the Consciousness, which is the silence, which is nothing. And then that thing that I can trust — that thing that's left behind after there is no mind.

This appeared to me. The mind basically — it's when you look at something that is so beautiful that takes your mind away. You can look at a flower, you can look at the moon, the sky, anything that you adore. When you look at it, it's perfect. The flower — let's just talk about orchids. When you look at it, it's beautiful. It takes your mind away. So I look at the flower and I say, what is the difference between you and me? You are also created by gods, or by a bigger power, by the creator, and I am also created by the creator. What is the difference between you and me? You are so perfect and I'm looking at you and I adore you. I notice that the difference is the orchid doesn't have the mind. So if I don't have the mind, I will be as beautiful as and as perfect as that flower, that orchid, because there is no suspicion, there is no fear, there is no anxiety.

And you can also look at a lion. Look at a cheetah, and they are perfect at doing their jobs. We adore them. An eagle looks at it and then goes in and then does a job. People are like, "Wow, look at that beauty. It's amazing." What is the difference between you and the eagle? What's the difference between you and the lion? Created by the same powers. But all you have is the mind that gives you that anxiety, that fear, that what-ifs, what-ifs, what-ifs — keeps you away from the perfection. So the veil between you and God, the veil between you and the perfection, is the mind. If you take that away, then you can be God. You can be with it. You can be with the universe. That's all I wanted to add. Thanks so much.

NThank you, Ari. So if you're a bit more precise about what you're saying — you're calling it mind, but if you're a bit more precise, what you actually lost is the sense of an individual self. So within the experience, like when you take stock, there's all the raw experiences — the orchid, the colors and all that. And then there's a specific part to that experience which could be called a sense of being a thing in that experience. The sense of self — and that's what you're calling mind, which was lost. The experience was still there. It's still here. But you've given up that idea of being an individual subject because actually the stock take didn't turn that up. There was nothing in there in any experience which justifies that sense. And when you are looking at the orchid and you do that same — what exactly here can be called the subject, an individual subject? Nothing.

And the beauty of the orchid is then not the beauty of an orchid. It is beauty. It is the beauty of Awareness in which the mind can take shape. And that's the way I use mind — all of experience, all different aspects of any experience.

They can take shape in that basis of subjectivity which is called Awareness, Consciousness, whatever the base Reality. And then any experience in which there's beauty — there's that perfection that is about not any individual subject or an object, but about Awareness itself. Rachel, you had your hand up.

QI was listening to your last talk about that phrase "Awareness alone."

And I'm recognizing that all of your talks are about this — just the thinking can become quiet to the point where, like I said, there's just beauty, or beauty of anything — just beauty in nothing and everything. I just want to tell you thank you so very much for providing this opportunity to be with the like-minded seekers, because it's a rare group and it's so important to be with this type of energy. So I just wanted to say thank you. I don't have a question at the moment, but your last talk is just sitting with me quite nicely. So thank you very, very much.

NThank you. So the last talk was also kind of related — that it's a very simple recognition. In any moment, instead of looking at — you can take stock first, but then you know that in this moment there's not much going on. Light, colors, sound, sensation, feeling. Done. And then recognize what can be called I.

It's not a thing. You are not a thing. What you recognize is only the fact of being aware that belongs to you. Nothing else can claim it.

We've done the stock take. That is your quality. Now try to add any other quality based on what you've observed. That's the quality of the object. Even the deep dark feeling — that's the quality of the feeling which will pass by, not your quality. And your quality is only singular: being aware. And that knowledge is the recognition of Self. That knowledge — the fact of being aware — is arising in Awareness, and that is the recognition.

Self recognizing Self. And then everything that is being known is also Awareness taking shape in all its unlimited infinite forms. And even though the moment is local and limited, in it you are seeing infinity. And not as something else, but as the core meaning of what is I.

QCan you expand that to include the unity as well?

NYeah. So the unity — unity is just the barrier between subject and object dropping. If there's a subject separate to all these objects, then there's still a duality, a border — the things and the no-things.

But once all of the things are also just — they're just pure Awareness. You just tweak it a little bit and you get a bottle. What is it? It's just colors, its shape. When you touch it — who touches it? It's just sensation. And you can see the unity in the moment.

If you think of someone you love or lost — what are they? Can they be lost? Because then what you're thinking of is only moments which have passed by, memories, experiences shared and so on. But not them in themselves. The unity is — it is not yet to happen, or a union. It is the unity. Not anything we try to separate and take out is purely conceptual.

QSo following — you take stock, you recognize the I as Awareness. And like you said, everything you look at — you're kind of looking at yourself. It is that experience that's happening. And then in that, your body and your own mind also is one of them. And you see something comes up and compelling you to do a certain thing — the body moves, the mind, thought comes to mind. And when you become that — I mean that's again part of this — then it's kind of like takes you out. And it's almost designed by — it's a negative feedback loop. There, when by virtue of becoming that, being that — the touch of Emptiness, mark of Emptiness in everything — out of that recognition you watch yourself, you see yourself, a thought coming, a body following. And can you stay in the Awareness just watching your body and thought, or you become that and come out of that recognition and then you can come back to it? But it's like — what is that Reality there in you?

NYeah. So what you're saying you're coming out of — that is not Awareness. You only — there's a focused recognition, and now there's no focused recognition. But still, as long as you are what you are, and Awareness is what you are, and that's not missing — you're not stepping out of it.

QNo doubt. But the recognition — I mean there is a distinct difference when you are in that state of recognition as opposed to when you're not. You're right. Obviously Awareness is always there, but that recognition that what I'm talking about.

NMhm. Yeah. Then your question is who wants to stay put in the recognition? Who has that goal?

It is the mind has set a new goal, and it was never the one recognizing anyway. All right. When it's quiet, when it's contemplative, you recognize yourself. When it has to do its job, let it do its job, and not then at the same time try to — you know, it's setting goals which are hard to meet, and nobody said it except the thinking.

So I mean once you've recognized what you are, it is sinking in. It becomes a fact. It is a fact. You don't have to revisit it the whole time. If the mind wants to change, it should just decide, okay, we're going to operate differently. The world has been flipped upside down.

Sure. Okay. Give it some time to reassemble itself. [clears throat] But now the facts of the matter are known — that there is no individual person observing me. What is watching is God. God is watching me. Now it can operate, do its work, whatever, but with that knowledge. So now what is the — there's only one sin, the original sin, is that the mind again assumes that there's a personal entity that it is conscious, that there's an individual self. Sure, the mind should figure that out — like okay, we know the facts of the matter, let's operate on that basis — which means it does not mean that it should work any differently and so on in terms of duties and jobs and all that. Still the same. Nor does it need to focus on the recognition 100% of the time. But when it starts to spin out of control — when there's anger or whatever, depression and so on — then it should automatically have a reboot sequence: that all this is based on the wrong idea of self; the truth of the matter is known, so why are we going round and round? So yeah, talk like this — stabilize in that. This is a process of stabilization.

QStill — yeah, I don't know. When you are there you're there, and then when you are not you start to think what happened — like you want to—

NThe day you recognize the earth is round, did you have to go back and revisit that 100 times?

QNot actually, not — you're right. It stays with you for a while, and then you hit the social media and boom, and then you have to work yourself back in there.

NYeah, there's a verse I think in Ashtavakra says don't stir your mind. It's like — so there's some point where there's still this concern about the recognition should be constant and I should return to it often and so on, but actually even that fades away, because it's like knowing the earth is round. I don't think about it every day. But the earth is round — you know, if you ask me is the earth flat or round, immediately the answer is no, the earth is round. And similarly if you ask me am I a man, am I a person, I might answer depending on who it is — I might answer yeah sure, I was born in this city and so on — but internally immediately the knowledge is there: no, that's not what I am. And then when your own mind is operating.

Yeah. And there's a thought, oh, I need to do this, blah blah blah. You recognize that's a way of thinking. And sure, the mind is processing. It has to plan and schedule and do that. But that is not I. You can know a fact so deeply that no matter what, it's just a fact, you know. And it should not — it's not that the fact has to then influence every experience. I think we already passed that. It's not you're trying to maintain yourself in a state, but because the fact is known with such an absolute certainty — like beyond certainty, it's just fact — there's an immovable quality now. And that immovable quality was always there. That was your quality.

The quality of being aware, immovable, never moved. And that was the foundation stone on which any idea of self could have been created. The persona and all that — that was built around the sense of I. And now you are taking your stand in that immovable foundation that is I.

QWhat made — yeah, I can be reduced to tears. I can, you know, have my life destroyed, loss, whatever happens — yes, happens. It is the experiencing of what is going on. Has it changed who I am? Has it changed who the one I love is? Nothing that cannot—

Right. So it's going beyond belief and conviction and experiences to validate what you have understood.

NMhm.

QYeah. So I say one more thing is that there is a nonduality between the I, the Awareness, and the mind that plays that trick on you, so to speak basically. So that there is no duality there either. So the mind works — is your Reality. You observe it and you are the Awareness and there is no duality between the two. So it's the same way that when you see something you are the seeing. The same way when the mind is working you are that thought, you are that.

And yeah — get stuck — I don't — yeah, these are all — I mean just it's still the mind itself formulating all this. It's not — but I get stuck there. Like I know it's a bit of a — I mean it's a bit absurd, but—

NYeah. So I mean just as long as you take away the idea of intent from the mind. The mind — if the mind was tricking you, it would be an entity with agency and intention and ability to do things. But that is not the mind.

QYeah.

NThere are processes taking place in nature which arise as experience. Loosely we call them mind. But there's no devil behind it. No one orchestrating it.

QYeah. That's true. It is—

NWith that the duality is easier to see through. The Awareness fundamental — when anything happens, like a ripple in the ocean is known by the ocean.

Who causes a ripple? It's just the laws of the ocean itself. The ocean ripples. Yes indeed. Even the desire that's forming, the intentions that are forming — you think you are intending to do something. You're intending to focus.

This — it's all happening by itself. It's just that nature is just the way it is designed, and it's so intricate because what do you expect? I mean, anything that comes from infinity is — nothing. But it's amazing the way it works. But it's almost you want to say it's me, but it's not you. It's all doing by itself. The mind, the body, all of that is happening by itself.

And the more subtle thing there is — there might still be an experience that I am doing this. Yeah. There's an experience to it because the experience is so intimate. There's no gap. There's no distance. And so the intimacy of the doing can be experienced as I am doing this, or I did this, it happened to me — and that's just dimensions of the experience. And you can still experience them and at the same time be at that immovable foundation. Yeah. Yes. This is just the experience and there's nothing wrong with it to change. If you feel an urge and the urge feels like my urge, that is just again just the quality of the urge and not your quality.

QYeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's — that was the key. Yeah. Okay. Thank you.

NThank you, Leslie.

QHi, Nabeel. Can you hear me? I've got my AirPods in. Could you just help explain a little bit our energy, Consciousness, the mind and experience — how they manifest in daily living. So for example, if I walk into a beautiful quiet chapel that has got this serene, peaceful energy about it, as opposed to walking into say a dingy alleyway full of rubbish and graffiti and bad smells. It feels really, really different. And it's not — it's an energetic feel. One feels uncomfortable. The other one feels like a space I'd like to be in.

Now Awareness is just aware of everything. Are those feelings that I'm perceiving coming from conditioning of a body-mind, or is it actually an Awareness of a change in energy in those different scenarios?

NMhm. Yeah. So those are all — first just see that they are all just qualities of the experience. Yeah. Something beautiful has the quality in that experience. That quality is there.

Beauty — and something disgusting. The quality is in there. Disgust. But since we have seen there is no individual self, you're now examining these just as a child would. Ooh, what is this new feeling? It's disgust. You are not disgusted, but the disgust is captured in the feeling just as it arises. Why does it arise that way? You can try to explain it through conditioning. The body has evolved to be disgusted by that because it causes disease. It leads to death.

And but it's not intentional. Nobody created that. It just — over time the body has evolved. The mind is reflecting what is going on in the body. And Awareness recognizes as disgust or beauty. And the thing that — where this will hover around — is the judgment of what is experienced. Right now the judgment is another experience, because of how complex the human brain is. While that experience is happening there'll be another experience that becomes part of that whole experience, and that is judging — that's disgusting — and then there's thoughts about it. Or if you are contemplative then you'll say, oh I should not feel disgusted, and then there's the thoughts around that. Those are also just aspects of experience and they have also arisen due to conditions and causes. And then you see that — what is the nature of Awareness?

Awareness will give rise to any experience without question. It is reflecting the process going on in nature because Awareness is nature itself. Awareness is the deepest aspect, the core of nature. Why can we say that? Because all the other aspects — they're not as real.

They're just rules, the laws due to which behaviors happen or things happen. But then the heart of nature is this being aware, and that heart never says no. It just beautifully reflects whatever appears. Yeah. If disgust has to arise, it'll be rendered in perfection. It will not be lacking in the qualities of disgust.

When pain arises, it'll reflect exactly what the body is trying to say. Oh, this part hurts in this way. And Awareness will keep — will render that in perfection.

It will not decide, oh, this pain is too high. Let's lower that a bit. Let's add a bit of beauty to it. Yeah. Because that's not how nature works. And while the mind deals with this — the thinking mind, the intellect — it's hard. You feel why should it be this way and I want this way. And then so the main thing we're cutting through is that I is not — I see the true I which never — you never say no.

QSo if I was in either of those situations, it's possible to feel equally comfortable and at peace.

NNo. [laughter]

QNo.

NDisgust. Yeah. Disgust is a feeling which feels a certain way and that feeling cannot feel better. Yeah. But what you will see is the judgment — "should not" — it'll just disappear once you see what you are.

QYeah.

NThe disgust is still the same. The smell is still bad. We cannot make the smell smell nicer just because we are enlightened.

There's no such process. Yeah. The only — the realization of what the Self is. And even in the context of a bad smell, you're just seeing what's going on. Yeah. You are what is aware. The bad smell is arising due to conditions and causes. There's no aspect of that which will change because of realizing.

Okay. Yeah. Except the additional thinking and judgment and blah blah.

QThank you.

NThank you, Leila.

Hi. You're still on mute. No, no, still can't hear you. It's showing you it's mute. Let's see.

QOkay. Do you hear me now?

NYes.

QGreat. Hi, Nabeel. I am new to this. A friend of mine, Cisco, introduced you to me. So before I want — I have a question, but regarding the question what Leila asked — from my own experience, because I'm very sensitive to if something, you know, it doesn't feel good, or what exactly she said — for me when I accept that moment that helps a lot. Just I wanted to tell — like if I am in a place that is not good, I don't resist it. When I don't resist it, it doesn't turn to wonderful, but it is acceptable. The suffering is less. So that is my experience. And the question I have — I wanted to talk to you. I emailed you a couple days ago and I don't know if I can talk to you in private or two, but anyway. I had my search about 20 years ago. I wasn't looking for anything. I wasn't looking for enlightenment, but some mystical things happened a lot during one year. And so right now I just want some advice because I don't know what to do. I'm not enlightened. I'm not here. I'm like in between. And then I was thinking to myself, I said maybe I just want to be out of suffering. I'm not necessarily looking to be enlightened — which I cannot be because if I don't exist, as you know — but I just want some peace. Maybe that's what I'm looking — it's like get out of the suffering, and I'm not able to get out of it. So I try not to listen to anything, not to listen to this nondual — I just get away, kind of running away from it, but I see myself again I'm listening and you know—

NYes. So actually I can — let's combine your two questions. So one is the reduction of suffering and what is the next step from what you recognized. And the other is what you are recognizing and what reduces suffering. And you called it acceptance. In the moment, if you stop resisting, stop struggling, the suffering goes down. It reduces it in some way.

QYeah, it goes down. What I find out recently — I found the whole life is suffering.

It doesn't matter what. You want to have a beautiful car, you get it, you suffer again. You have the best job, you get it, you suffer. So I'm 100% sure the life is suffering. So that is only things I'm sure about it. And about the Awareness — I know that I'm aware. I can hear your voice. I'm aware of all of these. But I'm not fully in it because again I was talking to Cisco a couple days ago. He said you are Awareness. I say okay — if I knew 100% Awareness, for example right now I see the sun, you don't need to tell me look the sun is there, I can see it. Or if I'm a woman you don't need to remind me that I'm a woman. I know I'm a woman. But I'm not in that state. If somebody have to keep telling me, that means I'm not it, you know. I'm not, you know—

NYeah. All right. That's the third thing we need to talk about. Let's go to the acceptance thing first. All right.

QOkay.

NSo what you're recognizing is by stopping the resistance, something good is happening. Let's take the next steps. Oh, your photo just moved there. So move here. What is going on? Let's take the next step. So there's a conscious trying not to resist, trying to accept, and it does help to an extent.

But then take the next step. What am I really in this moment? Like when the pain is inevitable, you can't stop it. When the circumstances have led to something and you can't change it, what are you — what is your role in that moment? I often return to this — what is your true role? And it is just that you're aware of that moment. Whatever is going on — sadness, happiness, pain, joy, all of it. And your role is never changing. Yeah. And that you start from there. Now don't try to give up resistance and try to accept. But just see — my role beyond doubt is that I am aware.

QI don't want to be aware of it. I don't like—

NWell that's like saying the sun should not look like that. So that's — the sun you just saw and you say it looks like that. Then is suffering — that is then suffering?

See — so suffering. Yeah. So if we go to the core of it — experience — what is suffering? Suffering is experience. Are you ready to give up experience completely and forever for eternity? To reject experience in totality.

QI want to keep the good if I am honest. I want to keep the good experience. I don't want the bad experience. But I still love to experience. I love to experience flower. I love to experience beauty. And I enjoy that.

NYes. And that is a very deep part of what allows life to exist, because life is a struggle. It's a disaster.

QIt's terrible. Yeah.

NHowever, there is very deep — you find in yourself this love to be. Yeah. The love to be, to exist, and it's very hard to give that up. At most life will drive you to a point where you want to give up this life. Okay, I'm done with this one.

QYeah.

NBut to reject experience as a whole — that there should never ever be any experience — you will find if you're honest, you look in yourself. No, no, I do not want to do that. Yeah, it is in your nature to be aware. You are the Awareness. You say, you've heard it. You know it. You are what is aware. Yeah. Just like you say it is — you don't need to be told you are a woman. You don't need to be told you are aware. You know it. Yeah.

QYeah. Could we say Awareness and suffering almost the same? They are like together. Comes together. Because I don't suffer in deep sleep. I'm not suffering. Or when I am in the hospital under — I'm not suffering at all. As soon as I open my eyes in the morning then the suffering is there. Could we say that they are together?

NYeah. The Awareness is there even in general anesthesia, in deep sleep. That is Awareness — the core basis in which experience can be there or not there. That is Awareness. It allows for the possibility of experience.

So that is why I often refer to the dialogues of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, and he was at this end suffering from terminal cancer, and he was quite honest and brutal in how he discussed Consciousness. Yeah. And what you're saying maps to that — that experience comes later. It maps to what we could call suffering. Yeah. But Awareness is fundamental. You can never be angry or hate Awareness. You can hate an experience.

You can want to reject experience. But to reject Awareness would be to reject your true nature. And who would do that? It is just convoluted thinking that might dare to do that, not you. Yeah. Now, so we start there. Your base nature is being aware. You know that because when you're in general anesthesia and the conditions are met for an experience to arise, you immediately experience that. So you're already aware. That is your nature. Yeah. If "aware" does not work for you as a word, give up the word. But think of what is your true nature that you are able to experience. Now what the experience brings is a bundle of — it's heaven and hell together and it's always a package deal.

You cannot just have heaven. Because even if you just had heaven, like you said, you get everything you want and then it turns to dust. Tastes bland after a while. So yes, we can equate experience to suffering. And that is the Buddha's insight when he went to end suffering. What he saw is actually there are no separate individuals that suffer.

That what these — all these people, the selves I thought were separate — they actually are the nature, the Buddha-nature in them. He sees the Buddha-nature which is this nature of being aware, this intrinsic nature. And then what is suffering then? Suffering is just experience as a whole, which is not just suffering — it is also joy, it is also beauty and love and all of that. And now who is left standing to reject it or accept it? Whoever that one is is just — it's popping up in that moment. And when you take stock, it's just a thought. And so the way to then cut through the suffering is to take your stand in what is most you, without being told what are you. That true nature being aware — that is you. And then when whatever experience comes, the acceptance is not an intentional acceptance, but seeing as you're just carrying out your duty, your nature of being aware of whatever is popping up. You're making it possible.

And then whatever is appearing you can start to see dimensions of that experience which were being ignored and which were being trying to be suppressed with thought, and a lot of attention was going in useless.

QYeah. Okay. I have so many questions but next time I ask. Thank you so much.

NThank you.

QYeah, what Leila was describing — I remembered one of the dialogues of the Maharaj and a similar line of questioning. And the reason — you talking about like why can I not have just good experiences? I love experience. I love being alive. But why not — what's the wisdom in the bad ones? And it's your own desire to experience the good ones more intensely that creates the bad ones, because without the contrast you will not be able to go to the depth of that. So be a bit honest with yourself — even the bad ones you want them, because after going through the bad ones you see the good ones more intensely. It's your desire for the life — that and infinity. You can't have a system that's always one direction. I mean that you have to have — infinity would not be able to manifest itself in a meaningful way if everything was one dimension. It has to be good and bad. I mean even if scientifically you think about it — infinite potential — how does it manifest? It has to be a mix. Anyway, just wanted to throw that in.

NThank you. [clears throat] Yeah. And then you see all experiences are deviations from the norm. Yeah, there's the baseline — just Awareness, purely being aware. There doesn't need to be any experience. Then there can be good experiences or bad experiences. But they are just both. Once you stop thinking in good and bad, they're just experiences. The heights and the depths and the peaks and the troughs.

But as soon as you lose interest in a higher peak or avoiding a lower low, they actually stop being so high and low in a certain sense, because you are anchoring around just the recognition. This is the Self. This is what is real. And this is just a transient phenomena. It's losing its power. Yeah. Once — how can an experience get really terrible? Like when you are watching a horror movie and you really get terrified. How can it happen?

Is you really take it to be true that you are this victim about to be devoured or whatever. Like you have taken that to be the true state of affairs — that you are a thing. You got this little tiny life holding on to it dearly. Something terrible is about to happen to you. And if we take away that whole basis of thinking — the alien, the mouth comes large.

[laughter] How do you approach that moment as an individual, or seeing that okay, no matter what the monster is — behind the monster what is true is again purely just Awareness in which maybe a terrible experience has arisen. It's a terrible predator and there's a bit of pain about to be experienced. But this — that peak and trough get squashed, because in the middle and eternally is your true state. The perfect peace of just purely being aware without having to experience anything. But when it comes, it comes. Cisco. Ah, we still can't hear you.

Nah. All right. We'll come back. We'll go to Neil and you try to fix that.

QHi, Nabeel. What a simple question I've got for you this evening. Whenever particularly you hear with Rumi or those poets, those master poets, they often refer to the beloved — and you know you can go along thinking, oh that's obviously that, or I can relate to that.

But that particular — because it comes up so often in that poetry and it's such a — they're so passionate about the beloved. I mean I can't quote you a line from any of his, but I'm sure you're very aware of them. But I just — I would be grateful if you could tell me how you see that, how you take that meaning and what it means to you, and hopefully I'll understand it.

NYeah. I mean, as long as there's experience, there is going to be moments where you lose yourself in a feeling of separation. Yeah.

And by turning it into a love affair between you and Reality, you can then start to dance around all those dualities. They just disappear. Yeah. It's how we are making use of this instrument the mind and its best qualities of love. You're turning its devotion towards what is truly I — and I in the universal sense, not just a personal sense. Yeah. A lot of the way I think this is communicated is to give a taste to the disciple, to the seeker, of what the mystic has gone through. The mystic has probably — obviously probably — ended, they already passed this, but they want to communicate: this is what I went through. This is why I talk in such — I make such grandiose claims about something so obvious, so ordinary.

Yeah. There's this problem when you recognize it's too ordinary and often it's just rejected offhand, and now you want something grandiose. And so this is to turn it into something so amazing, so beautiful, because the mystic has gone through this journey. They had the taste. You have that initial taste which just takes you out of the normal view of life — what is this, who am I, what is God. And you go on this path and you feel the pain of not being with the one you love, the one you're looking for, that pain of separation. And it is worth framing that into looking for the one you truly love because it creates a kind of urgency and honesty. It pulls all the resources and pushes away everything inconsequential in your life to focus yet to that union. So some of it I think is to help frame it for the seeker, the devotee, the one who's just starting. Some of it is just that's because really how it feels when you have a true conversation. Who's talking to who? Like in your own — who's talking to who?

Yeah. You start to realize, oh, I am talking to the one I love — not me personally. It's the mind realizing this intricate web of thoughts and beliefs and memories and all that. It's realizing, oh, who is it that is listening? Who is it that's watching me? And that is the one I love. I the mind love this Awareness, and I the Awareness know this mind producing this love — or Awareness — like it's just a crazy — as I'm explaining this I'm going crazy — like it's the delirious dance round and round. It's just whirling around. It's actually no two things, but by making it two, you're trying to make sense. You're trying to live through it, live with it. Because if you really get to nonduality, it makes you — it stops you from saying a word. Yeah. So I would rather maybe say continue to say a few words a bit longer. And to do that you can think in terms of the beloved and the lover who was not — the lover gives up himself.

I don't exist. When I don't exist, I am you and I am the love and you are the love — and again we go round and round dance. I don't know. I think if we only approach it as wisdom, as inquiry, it's really only half of it. Even Nisargadatta — you read his first book, it's full of bliss and love and devotion, and later he covers it up with his cynical statements and so on — but that's only half of it. And the major step that you take in the path is only to shift from the head to the heart.

Single step.

QSo you're saying that it's love. It's like that slow. So instead of just trying to figure everything out with your intellect or with your mind, however you want to put it, that the next step is — it has to be based on love, or it comes from the place in you that — I think where it feels — is that what you're getting at?

NSo I would say you just work with whatever is appearing. Yeah. Sometimes there's beauty and you work with the beauty.

Wow. Beauty. Sometimes the disgust. Now, how do you work with disgust? [laughter] That's the time where you bring in wisdom. Yeah. You don't try to change the disgust. Don't try to cultivate love. No, it's disgusting. And then you bring in wisdom. What am I here? Why is there disgust? What can we do? What is our role here?

Straightforward. You are what is aware. Disgust is an experience. It has conditions and causes. Who cares? And that's the serenity of wisdom. And then you're at the beach with your family and you see and you enjoy seeing their happiness. They're playing and you see the sunset and then there's beauty and love and then yes — work with that. So every experience must be showing you the truth. Every experience.

Yeah. Because Reality is always the same. And you're getting to what is that core Reality. You — if there is a you — is always you. You. Yeah. And you're getting to what is that quality of you-ness. Yeah. And so there are the three angles — wisdom and truth, maybe that's one — wisdom and truth, and it is love. Love is internal in the heart. And then there's beauty which is external in a way. You observe it.

Truth and wisdom, love and beauty. These are the dance of the mystic and the sage.

QYeah. Yeah. That's a wonderful answer. Thank you so much.

NWonderful. Thank you. Cisco, you want to try again? No. No, no worries. Or you could type it in chat if you like.

There's actually a book by Francis Lucille — Truth, Love, Beauty. I believe he's Rupert Spira's mentor. I've heard him more than Rupert Spira because I think I read that book. Yes, I did, because he has this nice scientific mind which I like — he can merge science with reason with understanding, love, truth, beauty. So in Rumi there was the video I did on the lover who was not.

It has this beautiful setup to explain the whole path. The path — the lover goes to the house of his beloved and he says let me in, and she asks him who is asking. It's me, it's me. She's like — it's setting it up that until you give up that idea of me as an individual, you cannot be united with the one you love. Yeah. It's teaching what is true union. True union can only be when there's no separate you and the beloved. Because otherwise you can best just hold hands.

That's not union. So he goes on this long journey of pain and sorrow and separation just to give up the idea of him being separate. And then the door is open. Yes, Rachel.

QSo now you've circled back to the unity.

NYeah, it all circles. Spirals. You've come full circle.

QThe illusion of separation — isn't that a way of actually having experiences?

Because if we didn't experience separation, what exactly would our experiences feel like? Would we have any feelings, any sensations?

NSo experience does not require a sense of separation or self. Yeah. Like what Ari was describing. There is in experience a sense of being a separate person, a self — what you call mind. You could call it mind. That is the whole thing about all this — and it's only thought-based, it's only belief-based to think that there is separation. But when you're seeing something there's no separate seer. We're just seeing. And there's no separate object being seen either. There's the seeing. We've been through this many times.

QYes. Yes.

NAnd you can do this with anything. When there's a feeling—

QFeel.

NYeah. Feeling. Yeah.

QIt's just feeling.

NAnd so the honest experience is there is never any separation.

QYeah. We just — there's just a placeholder in the human intellect and it's called me. I.

I got to tell you I love that intellect. [laughter] The main me.

NBut in that setup of the lover giving up himself for his beloved — that is the intellect first of all starting as the intellect. First of all surrendering from the very cognitive thought-based head, becoming down, coming down to the heart.

Because there's two hemispheres to the brain itself. There's the logical reasoning side and there's the creative emotional side. Combine them first from head to heart. Now see — it doesn't mean you reject the intellect. You know I am quite intellectual. I talk about all kinds of [laughter] logic, void, reasons and all that.

QSure.

NThe intellect is there. However, it has realized it alone can never get to the beloved. Just like scientists know that they can only go to like one tiny bit after the big bang and not before. [laughter] The intellect can realize that and then it turns to the heart for help.

QYeah. The heart which was put in cold storage starts to thaw. [laughter] Cold storage.

NYeah. For men especially, it just — we put it in the freezer and forget.

QIt happens for women too. [laughter] They get through a certain threshold of pain and then they shut it down.

NSo that can happen as well. [laughter]

QYeah. It's just a human process for protection, self-protection sometimes.

NYeah. So that's the journey. So that when it starts to thaw, it's painful. It's cracking. Your heart is cracking open again. You cry, you're sad. There was a point where — you know what I was saying to Leila actually — I went against that. I was saying I was ready to give up all experience for eternity ever. Not just for me. I was like, you would not want to give me the infinity stones at that point [laughter] if you know the — anyway. So, but then I saw my daughter and she was so happy and that was like — what am I thinking in my depression? How stupid. How selfish in fact to be ready to reject all experience for all eternity forever.

QHow arrogant.

NHeart starting to open to see not just from my despondent self, the intellect.

QYour beautiful child. Your beautiful child.

NYeah.

QWow. And just an example — it's just you start to see.

Yes. So now let the heart search for the truth.

NRight.

QAnd the heart is always very inclined towards looking at things as a whole. When we think from the head, we are breaking it down and conceptualizing.

NYes. Yes.

And the heart is more all-embracing kind of thinking — looking at the big picture, interconnections.

QYeah. Yeah. I get that. I understand it intellectually. And I feel it. I don't have children, but I do — I had one of my pups die last week, and that heartbreak came from a wellspring of something inside that had not been touched in a long time. So what you're talking about — the moving to the heart — I'm starting to get it. [laughter] I'm starting to get it. So thank you.

Thank you for sharing with us how this entire being is involved in our waking up. Thank you so much for that.

NYeah, you could just sit with it and do an experiment. Ask first of all — ask from the head what am I? And it's come all kinds of answers. I'm this person, this individual, whatever, born here, blah blah. And you ask it from the heart and the answer is much more beautiful. The heart will take you back. It'll jump through the different memories, the different emotions, the people you know. And it's trying to show you all of that.

Yeah. From the moment of birth to this point and till the end of this life. At the very least, all of that is you. It's not a little thing without any non-reality whatever. Just look from the heart. And every single point, instant in this my life — where in any moment I was trying — I was saying if you take stock there's not much, but that's at the surface level. If you take one experience and you look at it a bit closer and then you start to see the depth and you go deeper — and it's amazing, intricate, and every experience in every moment of this life. What is it? Is it something not you? Is it someone else's experience? Yeah. So the heart does not see in terms of time and space. It's the intellect which sees in that way. And because of that, according to the head you are an object at a certain point in space and time. But actually there's a river flowing that is life, and one branch of it — even one branch of it — is immense.

So you could just look at that one branch and also see the immensity. There's one place where I describe like the meaning of what Nabeel means started to open up — and that can be even without nonduality. What does my — your name refer to? Does it refer to a finger? No. Would it refer to a brain? Well I only studied brain, you know, in school and so on. It's just an idea. I don't see my brain. That's not what Nabeel refers to. What does it mean to you? And you arrive at this — that every single experience in this life, because it's not had by anybody else, it cannot be seen from outside — all of that experience if you bundle it and label it, that is Nabeel. And then you arrive in the now. What is the seeing, the hearing, the feeling, the sensing, all of that together, the happening of this moment — that is you. Like just the name you, not the actual you, which we could go even deeper, but just Rachel is the happening of this moment and not a person, not a thing. And that itself is an immense shift. So when there's that terrible experience which the intellect wants to reject, then you are the actual happening of that experience and the idea to reject it is only coming from a little tiny part of the brain.

QMhm. One of the things that happened with this experience, this loss — there is beauty in loss. Yeah, there's beauty in everything.

Even in pain when I observe pain I see how quickly it can change moment by moment. You have a stabbing. You have a heat, you have a this. It's just an amazing experience to be able to see it as it occurs. And what I find is once I focus my attention and become fascinated — the suffering — there is no negativity to it. It just is. And is the body giving me amazing information that something needs to get my attention. So looking at it from just the operational and functional part of the being in itself is the most fantastic process. So the labeling of the negative and the positive — it's so unnecessary, so totally unnecessary, because then that creates the desire. I want or I don't want. Just accepting it — this is this body, this body has a form, this form has a function, and this form has a process to get to the point you experience it from. That is just amazing.

NYeah. Yes. And but we should just recognize the amazing can be terrible at the same time. And that is the nature of experience. There can be peaks and troughs. But when you observe the process of the peaks and the troughs—

QI am so fascinated with the process. [laughter]

NThank you.

Yeah. [laughter] Neil.

QYeah, just a hopefully a fairly quick question. A while back you pointed us perhaps into the Bahiya Sutta, and I've watched that so many times. I watched that more than several times, and certainly the first time I saw it I watched it complete blank. Didn't get it at all. It was just like something's wrong here.

But since I've watched it again and listened again and really thought about it — and I still feel I'm working on it as it were, I'm still trying to just — but like a little crack in it perhaps, just see like ah hang on, maybe I can just get the right angle on what's being pointed to. And so forgive me for my non-verbatim, but my understanding of it is — he said Buddha was saying to you not the seeing is just seeing, the hearing is just hearing — that these things that you perceive are just perceptions, but there's no you. There's not a this — in my case Neil — who's actually perceiving. They're not his. They're there but I don't own them. And I kind of feel like I'm cracking it open. There's a little crack of light coming through. But to really be able to step back and see the whole picture, I feel like there's no way through for me just yet. Could you kind of crack that thing open a bit more for me in the open?

NYeah, but I would just be repeating what you've heard.

QIt's — but that's the way to work with these highest pointers.

NAmazing. Bahiya Sutta is one of them. Yes, one of my favorites because there's the context to it. What is Bahiya asking for? The end of suffering. And the Buddha is going on — apparently at first it sounds like why is the Buddha saying this? He's not addressing the question. But actually he is. He's saying, Bahiya, there's no you here.

Yeah. There's seeing. There's hearing. This is your view. Yeah. There's seeing, hearing, sensing. So what is the you that suffers? Who should the Buddha liberate?

So first see that in this, your direct view — and we're saying "your" for now, but the question is what is you? The Buddha is pointing out. There's no you in the view. There's no you in the view. There can never be a you in the view. So there's no you in there. Now are you something outside the view? Well, you know of nothing outside the view. You only know this seeing, hearing, sensing, feeling. There's nothing beyond this.

So you're not beyond this either. That would be just hypothetical. There's no you in the view. There's no you beyond the view. So you're neither here nor there. And there's no in between. Then there's no you there, Bahiya. There's no you at all.

And there's this basic incompatibility which I think I mentioned in the beginning between what the mind will try to define as you and what you actually are. And the Buddha is just destroying that mental possibility of an I, a separate self, an objective self, or even a separate subject as a self — because all there is is the seeing, hearing, sensing without any separate self and any separate subject and object. It's just pure subjectivity, pure experiencing happening, Awareness in action. And now when you're not in there, Bahiya — like just this — when there's no you there, just this is the end of suffering. Because then there's just experiencing and not suffering. There's just experience and there's qualities of experience which can be terrible or amazing and beautiful and whatever, but they're just aspects of experience.

They don't — there's a view. You are not in the view. Where does the view appear? If there's a you then that is you.

And that you is not — it's not what the mind considers you. Not what language — in language can be. Like when we say you then it's actually redefining you because language does not define you as that. Then you are the global context in which seeing, hearing, sensing etc. can take place.

When you are that then you're not the one suffering or the one that needs to be liberated or saved, and then you are the ultimate Reality. You're united — like you're giving up. Again, it's the same as what Rumi did. He gives up the lover to be united, to become one with the beloved.

And the Buddha does it more down the wisdom, serenity path, the truth path. Rumi does it down the love and beauty path. But it's the same — the union when there's no you there, just that is the end of suffering. So that's when you can say I am Awareness alone, unity itself — if you can live that and not just think that, actually be that. But even to say that is — who would say that? It's only for the purposes of maybe transmitting it that you can allow the mind can take up that disguise as if it is a spokesperson for Awareness. Awareness has no spokesperson. In fact, Awareness is silence. But once the realization has hit home so deeply and the lover has given up himself for the beloved, then there may occasionally be someone who speaks up. The mind which speaks up and tries to communicate — and that is in that line. You are Awareness alone, unity itself. Liberation is to know yourself as Awareness alone. Which is the same what Buddha just communicated to Bahiya. He asked for liberation. This is it. Now you know that you're not in it or beyond it. And all this — what is it? It's just Awareness.

Not nothing separate to what you are. And that is liberation.

QYeah. Once again, thank you.

NThank you. All right. Let's end there for today, Cisco. Hope to talk to you next time. All right. Thank you all for joining.

QThank you, Nabeel.

NThank you.

QThank you, Nabeel. And kids.