Who says this land is mine?

NAll the wisdom teachings, all the pointers, they are about the nature of Awareness. They are about this quality of being aware. They're not about an experience or state. As soon as you understand that, you're on the right track. And as long as you don't understand that, you will be off on the wrong track. It's about the nature of Awareness in this moment, in any moment.

The nature of Awareness is like this: you can never ever find a separate self in Awareness. It's impossible. Why? Because in Awareness you will only find faces and voices and thoughts and feelings, and none of those are separate selves. So the first point you have to understand is there's no basis for this belief in separate selves. There's no proof. You've never observed one.

But the belief remains because there's the "you" — that "I am such a separate self." There's this belief that Awareness is possessed by entities — that sentient entities possess Sentience. That is the belief. But the nature of Sentience is that you never find a sentient entity in Sentience.

So what is the reason for this belief? It's just a belief. It's an unexamined belief. It's like what we do with land. When humans find a new bit of land, they plant a flag and say, "This is my land." Now the land is your land. And then the natives come and you tell them, "Get off. This is my land." And they say, "What do you mean it's your land?"

You say, "Look, there's a fence. There's sticks here, and that's the boundary, and that's my land." And they say, "You mean these sticks, which grew from the trees of this land? Somehow that makes this your land now?" That's what's happening in the thoughts that are appearing, the beliefs, you are using them... not you... The thoughts, the web of thoughts, is using them to build this conceptual self. It's entirely conceptual.

And then you say, "Look, there's a mailbox. There's a letter box with my name on it. That's my land." It's just a name. Awareness is like the land. We can never actually split it. We only split it in concepts. But there's no way to divvy it up and allocate it to things that do not exist.

So all the pointers, all the teachings — we keep returning to this. It sounds amazing. Sometimes it sounds like it's describing a state you've never experienced. But it is all about the nature of Awareness, what it means to be aware. You are not a sentient thing, but the Sentience itself.

And this is not a far-fetched thing. It's just to look at Sentience as it is. Where you never find any separate entities in it, and you stop taking yourself to be one. All right. Let's go into discussion mode. Yes, Chris.

QSo when all of this comes up in our Awareness — especially these thoughts, however that phenomena arises — when we get stuck, what is that? What is that attention that seems to focus in on a thought or a feeling, that kind of pulls us in and gets us stuck, and sometimes keeps us from noticing the Awareness that we are? I don't know if that question makes sense... it makes sense in my head, but...

NThe land is always the land. To be aware means you are the Awareness. Now, this is the nature of phenomena you're talking about — there can be an experience where you're looking at a wide open space, and that's a different kind of experience than a very focused thought. But that is the nature of the experience.

If the thought is fully captivating, that's not somebody getting trapped or someone focusing. That is the nature of that experience. Does that make sense? These are all qualities of the experience. If you're standing near the beach, it's a wide open panoramic view. If you're in a cave, it's a myopic view. But that is the nature of the scene, and that has nothing to do with Awareness itself. We're just taking out that belief, because as you started saying that, I'm sure you realized you were again talking about "we having Awareness" — and that's the problem. That is the wrong belief. Awareness cannot be allocated to individuals.

QThank you. Just piggybacking on that question — some of those experiences... Yeah, that's the nature of them, but it takes you away. It makes you feel like you can't access that Awareness. It feels like you want to come back from that experience and say, "Okay, where was I?" And then it becomes like it's farther away, because you gave your attention to that experience and submerged yourself in it. Can you elaborate on that? How can you be further or nearer to Awareness?

NIt's again the nature of the experience. What happens is, because of all the meditation stuff, you found some nice states. There are peaceful states, and there's messy mind, and all that. You're noticing the difference. But Awareness is not just the peaceful state. Everything is arising in that. All kinds of things grow on the land — they can be thorny bushes and wonderful trees and whatever. Who's going to stop it? The land doesn't say no.

QYeah. I think the underlying thing is... okay, when you are out in the world and you want to get back to that — you're not getting back to anything, it's there. But how do you, given this apparatus, how do you realize your true Self? You tend to use your mind. You start thinking, "Okay, what was it like?" It's the nature of this Sentience, and that kind of thing. It gets you stuck, because you don't have access to that. So what's that shortcut — where you're out in the world and you want to get back to that state? You can't use your mind, because if you use your mind... I mean, you can, but it takes a long time. Meditate, calm down, and all that stuff, and then you quickly lose it.

How do you bypass the mind process to get back to that?

NThe first step is to use the mind. You ask the question, and it's simple — those are the pointers. You will come up with your own; it'll be one word or one line, or not even a word. And it reminds you that the nature of Sentience is like this. You just notice: look, right now, where am I? What, in all this, is "I"? And no specific thing is "I." And if you're worried about someone — what are they? They're not the face you remember. They're not the voice. They're not the memories. What are they?

You always come back to the point that there is no separate individual self. That at any point, what is aware is the Awareness. It's that identity. In maths we have equalities, but identity is further than equality. Identity means... That is It. It's more than equality, equality means two things are equal. I don't know what word to use, but it means there are two names for the same thing, perhaps. You're understanding there's an identity here — it's not my identity or hers, or whatever.

A unity, a union, a wholeness. And in Awareness you can never find separate selves. You can never split it among separate selves. In words it's all very tricky, but you can observe it in this second. Are there 10 different people here? There are just faces. Behind the face, what is it?

Right now, [unclear], can you see? You can see all these faces. But you know, you're not just talking to the face. You recognize that the one that is aware is hearing the voice — your voice, this voice, that voice, whatever. And in that Awareness, we are not finding a "we," we're not finding any person. So that is just a theoretical way to look at the world — that there are people and all that. Fine, we can operate in that way. You can still have your plot of land, but then you know that the land is more fundamental than all our boundaries and so on. All right, Neil.

QHey. When you started you said you didn't know what to say, and I feel exactly the same. I think it's kind of normal in Satsang perhaps — let me just jump in. So I hope you'll bear with me. When I'm aware, in the place of Awareness — taking into account how nonduality works — I... that there's one Awareness, there's only one Awareness... Language kind of fails you, but okay — I am that Awareness. It occurred to me that you say "I am here," and then it just occurred to me: where's here? What actually is here?

You're saying that all these spaces and all these individuals — my here and my Awareness — it's the same thing. I mean, you're not in Kent, in England, and you're not sharing my same physical place. But that Awareness, that Consciousness, it's the same. We're all in the same sphere. But really my question is: is my here your here? Is your Awareness my Awareness? Is that how it actually is? So when we say "your" and "my," that's already impossible to me — it's impossible.

NWhen you describe that Kent is different from Melbourne, or whatever, that's describing the features of a piece of land. But we're talking about something more fundamental.

The differences are in the phenomena — arising in the experiences and memories and whatever. But the here, being here, means being aware, and there cannot be two kinds of being aware. Yeah, I mean, because my Google thinks I'm interested in Consciousness. It keeps sending me articles on that, even though I ignore them now. It keeps sending me articles on how scientists now believe birds are conscious, or insects are conscious — yes. If there's Awareness, there's one kind of Awareness. It's not human Awareness. To be aware is just to have this capacity to perceive. What kind of perception arises depends on the instrument. Whatever is going on, whatever grows on the land — we are looking at what is most fundamental.

And what is most fundamental to you is this quality of being aware. What is most fundamental to Reality is the same quality. And when you talk to me, what you are admitting in your own heart is that over there is also this quality of being aware. There's already a recognition when we communicate. It's impossible not to see that — unless you're talking to a chatbot. Okay. Yeah, Rosie.

QYeah. Hello, Nabeel.

NHi.

QWhen you mentioned a little earlier about the screen and the images on the screen, I wanted to pause. I want to do a little bit of inquiry with you, to see if I'm... So, when you said that something happened — just like a little... Before you said that, the attention was on the images, and it was more like, "Oh, these are the people," and then there were just ideas, taking them to be real, just automatically, subconsciously. When you directed the attention, it was like, "Oh, wait a minute. These are just pixels, and there's really nobody there — it's just light, pixels, and all that is happening here."

Like, "Oh, that's a person, that's a man, that's a woman" — all that's happening here. And then somehow the mind got quiet, like right now. ...and the mechanism, the processes, just sort of slowing down. I noticed it was trying to analyze and figure out and all that, but... I don't know, sorry — I was trying not to give it attention, but it was more like the attention was just here, and that thing just started quieting down and dying down. It's not completely died down 100%, but that pull — like these people — is not as strong right now.

Somehow, on my screen there are boxes on the right, and then I have your image on the left as the bigger image. But when I looked at your image, you seem more like you, more still a person to me, and those are more like just boxes, just images. And I was just noticing that — why is there a distinction? I don't know, the mind's just doing that. It seems like in these types of environments it's like a laboratory. The mind's quiet, it's a very sanitized environment, and then when this is shut down and I walk outside into daily life, it's just like... you know. But this is beautiful too, just to be able to sit here. And what you were pointing out — to the Awareness — so there's just awareness of some sensations in the face. There's something, I don't know the word... gravity, a little heaviness, whereas before it was just more like thinking, thinking, thinking. So the idea is... I'm not doing it, it's happening on its own right now. You just directed the inquiry, so to speak, and I'm noticing it's happening by itself, which is kind of cool to be honest. It's like I'm not having to make effort — I'm just noticing the noticing happening.

NYeah, that's exactly one of the steps we need to take. It's the half step back — I call it the half step back. The mind is fuzzy. It's going on its usual business. It will always think in terms of people, and you took a half step back. What you describe — you go from... the feeling is going from the brain to the heart. It's like it's headed to the heart right now. Once you see that all this is pixels and light and whatever, then from the heart you can see. So what's behind these images?

Because there's a point to go wrong here, and that is: "Only I am conscious, and the rest are things." That's the solipsism kind of view of the world. But once you look from the heart, then you know — behind all these images, the very same... yeah, it's just we're wearing a disguise. The disguise is made out of time. Time and space are the disguise. These are my clothes. In the very same moment, each of the experiences everywhere — the pain, the same Awareness — the heart can understand that very easily. The brain cannot.

QNabeel, if I may — when you... I'm not able to... it seems like isn't there a thought involved to say that we are the same? Isn't that a thought?

Because that's not my experience right now. My experience is just... I don't know what to say, but I cannot say we're all the same and there's only one Awareness. To me it seems more like a thought that I have to believe at this moment perhaps. I hear that, but I would love to experience that directly. Am I missing something obviously?

NYeah, it's not a thought. It's a recognition that if all that is observed is insentient phenomena — all that can ever be observed is experience, perception... And I am not that. Are you that? You're not a perception.

QNo.

NWhatever is perceived is not sentient. That's just perceiving. That cannot be a separate self. Now you're taking a half step back. You're going from the surface level to more fundamental. The surface level is all these insentient phenomena. And if you only go by that, there's no such thing as sentience. You know, there are philosophers who argue that there's no such thing as Consciousness. At the surface level, everything is an insentient observation. You pull back — what is the basis of all these observations? That is "I." You're going towards the meaning of I, and that is not a personal I, because that personal I is all among the observations.

Everything personal about me is the face, the name, the memories, whatever — even sensation, feeling — those are observations. Those are not I. What is the basis of all these observations? And what you did — you went from head to heart. It's much more easier to get there from the heart. Because actually, there's a kind of two-step process. The first is all the older concepts of I are given up. So it's like saying, oh, there's no me — and not just saying, but really, truly, deeply, that is the...

That's the implication. There is no me. And when you then say "I," that is the all-encompassing I — that wherever an experience is perceived, that must be the meaning of I. There is no other possibility. But it's not far from what you're talking about. Don't worry. Yeah. When you took the half step back, you went from head to heart. From there, everything starts to make sense.

QIs there another way... what you just described, there's no me — and is that another thing, to give up thinking? Or to not — because the I is a thought also. Is it... it's like right now I'm just being here. Everything's quiet. It's a very different beingness that's being experienced right now. Even though a question wants to be asked, I don't want to entertain it, because right now it's just so calm, quiet. There's no activity. The head is somehow tilted for some reason, and it's just so fixated, and it's just... there's a stillness right now somehow. It's just nothing. I don't have anything to say other than...

NYeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Beautiful. [unclear].

QI kind of... In daily life, automatic reactions still appear, and Awareness is noticed only afterwards. I understand that Awareness is always present. Yet... there's a feeling sense that the reaction happened without the witness. How can one remain in Awareness even in those moments?

NCould you repeat that a bit?

QSure. In daily life, when let's say there is some emotional situation that triggers some emotion, something strong, and there is an automatic reaction that happens very fast — and I notice it only a while after, as if I wasn't... really, the Awareness wasn't really there. But it happens very fast, and the noticing, the recognition of what happened, occurs after a while.

NYeah. Sure. Sure. So I mean, through that whole instinctive reaction, whatever happens, you are — the Awareness is there. You are the Awareness. As that happens, later on you realize that the way the mind is behaving is...

we judge it to be not up to the standard of what it should be. Once you realize this, there's a feeling like, "I should not behave like this anymore." "I should never get angry." It just doesn't make sense — who am I angry at? That is the... when you're in that still feeling Rosie is describing, it feels like all that misguided way of behaving should just drop away. And it does. When we are still, when it's peaceful, it drops away. But there is still a physical instrument there, and it works certain ways. When it has a certain stimulus, it reacts a certain way.

All the connections were configured over many years. So it will behave the same way. Later you recognize, "Why did it behave that same way?" And at the start of how it began to behave that same way was the "I" concept. It came very quickly — me, her, him, whatever. And then it can branch out and do its thing. Again, we completely eliminate that. It could be the "I" concept. This is a target.

But do we want to eliminate it completely, and who will do it? It's a rare occurrence that a mind is completely silenced for the rest of its days. When that concept becomes completely impossible to arise, behaviors will change — many things will have changed. It's hard to look back and see how much you have changed. In the moment that you start to feel something you deem to be wrong — this should not be, this should not behave this way — you notice that instead of letting that engulf you, you look at what is the seed of this behavior. At the seed will be the "me" concept. Me, them, it, whatever. And we just look at that, and in a second you can see: oh, that concept is wrong. I've already seen that it is wrong.

Now, having seen that it is wrong, whatever happens next will be fine. It will be correct, because you will be acting based on the truth of how things are — that there's no one to hate, that whoever... you know, that you don't just care about your experience and your stuff and so on. But some of it is just judging that the mind should behave very differently, when it has its own grooves. A tree has grown for many years, and then you expect that it should look different — all the branches are there. It's like... But if you always return to the root, and find ways to very clearly see that core point, then things sort themselves out. So this is a process — it doesn't instantly happen like before and after.

In the moment, as soon as you see it, you look back and you see the seed. Then you see, oh, there is no me in that sense. That is instant. The effect of that is instant. But to do that intuitively in the moment — that is a bit of a process, because that is triggered by the mind itself turning back. It recognizes the truth that the conceptual self, on the basis of which it is acting and behaving — if it continues to believe in that and continues to act out on that, it remains the same behavior. But if in that same mind there is a turning back, if another thought arises and says, look, what are you talking about — then immediately attention goes there, and the impact is immediate. Yeah. Anger that you would have held on to all day — it's gone.

Boom. Gone. It's like that kind of effect.

QThank you. Thank you. Now there... I'm going to describe a process I've been using and ask a question. So I'm in the middle of something and I want to get back to that understanding.

Say you can give your attention to many things, including your mind and your thoughts. But it's easy to give your attention to a sensory thing — just what you see. And then just by seeing it, you realize what you are at this moment. It's kind of a little bit of an intellectual thing, a little bit of a mental thing, but you get to a point where you say, "Well, right now I'm just that seeing. I'm nothing but that seeing at this moment. I'm not the identity, the 'me'..." So I'm just that seeing, nothing else at that moment. And so this just becomes a realization — a recognition that at this moment, really, honestly, if you look at it honestly, that's what you are. You're the seeing. Then the next step from there — that's basically coming to what Buddha said to Bahiya: in the seen, there's only the seen. You kind of get to that point. But then at that point you have to say, "Okay, but I'm not just that seeing, because now I can give my attention to hearing and I'm the hearing." So what is that "I" that stays there while the sentient phenomena changes from one to the next? You kind of have to stay at that razor edge of the focus of the mind, or quietness of the mind, to be able to do this. And then you say, "Okay, I'm the seeing when there is a seen. I'm the hearing when there is a heard." So what is that "I"? And then that's the gateway to get you to this — what you're saying — to the Awareness that underlies all this stuff. That Awareness... it kind of gets you to the gate of heaven, and sometimes you cross that, and you get to this point where you're just there.

It's kind of... that "I" is there, but there's nothing else. You realize at that moment that you can use your mind at that point to make sense of all this, and 99% of the time you do, and then you get kicked out. But you do have that realization that you can just refuse that and say no. But it's almost like... I don't know what to say. Can you comment on this?

NYeah, it's... the Bahiya is working for you, right? It works really well. I mean, the first time I heard that, I kind of felt this — it was the thing that resonated with me the most.

So there are two ways here. One is as you described: you see the seeing, hearing, sensing — all of it in this moment. There's nothing else that can be called "I." If there's an "I" in this moment, that's it. But then the Buddha says it a bit differently. He's saying: in the seen, there's only the seen. In a way, he's removing Bahiya from the equation, because you take out the "I" completely first. Then later we can use that word again. The seen is not "I." The heard is not "I." And then he tells Bahiya: you're not something along with that — like, there's the seen and there's you. No. There's only the seen, and you're not the seen.

You're not the seen. The heard is only the heard, and all that. You're not with that. You're not in that. So you cannot be in it. It just completely eliminates you from being in space. If you're not in physical space, you're not in subjective space. You're just gone. Neither here nor there, nor between the two. Gone. Not in time and space. Eliminated. Then there's no you there, Bahiya. That's how he says it: "Then there's no you there, Bahiya." Why is he using the name Bahiya? That itself is a pointer too, because then it hits home for Bahiya. Then there's no you...

Then all there is is that fundamental Reality that allows for the seeing, hearing, sensing. The word "I" is obsolete, actually. In a way, the old "I" is gone. The old king is dead — long live the king, the real king. So when you're stepping into heaven, how can you step in there? You can step in there once you're not a person. No person has ever entered nirvana. And when you get kicked out, it's because that old "I" is coming back.

QYeah, that's exactly it. The moment you do the mind... So it's a little — this Vajrasutra is a little subtle. It's a subtle difference with what Nisargadatta says. It says stay with the "I Am" all along, crossing the gate to the other side, the other shore. Whatever you are, you are staying with "I Am" until that "I Am" goes away. But it's the same thing. I realized that I kind of myself hold on to that "I Am" because that's the only thing I've got. To escape my mind, that's the only thing I've got to hold on to. And that's the process that takes me there.

NSo Nisargadatta, he's being a bit more literal. I think the Vajrasutra is the teaching Buddha gives to Subhuti, because Subhuti has been through all that. He's a venerated sage and so on. So after you've been through all that and you're still questioning, you still have doubt, then the Vajrasutra in that moment clarifies everything.

You don't need any additional meditation, anything — whatever. It's in the moment, explained, done. Nisargadatta talks to all sorts of people, new and all, and his is a very literal method. Watch the "I Am." Watch it. Watch it. And you do it in meditation as well. And literally it disappears. There's no me — like, experience stops, comes back, and you notice: from what standpoint is this experience being noticed?

But it brings you to the same conclusion. Yes. Thank you, Zakina. I can't hear you yet.

QSo what I have started noticing in the last two or three days is, instead of saying "I," if the music is playing, there is Awareness. I could say "I am aware of the music," "I am aware of my emotions," "I am aware of the sensations in my body." The thoughts — they come and go. I see them. I can see everything around me. The word "I see," "I am aware" — and everything. I notice there is Awareness, that I am aware. But this "I" — is this Zakina? Is this the form that is aware, or is there just Awareness?

There is nothing other than Awareness. I mean, I'm trying to question of course, but at every point everything else is coming, going, listening, stopping, walking, sleeping, getting up. But there is this that doesn't go. This that doesn't change. Very, very ordinary — very ordinary Awareness. I have never had any experience, any exalted moment, or anything like that in my life. But now, over the last couple of years, or months, or so forth, a lot of love started coming out. And this was like two days ago, when I was listening to somebody with this meditation pointing to our absolute nature and our relative nature — and that's when the absolute nature is just there. It's undeniable in everything.

[unclear]. Just stay here. I mean...

NYeah, you have had the exotic experience. Love is the exotic experience.

QHow can you explain it? No, there is nothing you can say.

NLook. Yeah, you get it. You've got it long ago. I've seen your comments from years ago. But it slips. It slips, you know.

QOh, but this love is becoming more and more now than it ever was.

NAnd in Zen they say ordinary mind is the way. When they say mind, it does not mean a personal mind. This ordinary Awareness is the way.

The way, because it is not a destination. Do you get to...? No, there is no destination. This is what I used to think — to everyone — there is no enlightenment that I need to get to. To be aware means to be enlightened. Exactly. Because no form can be aware. They are the reflections. They are not enlightened. No physical thing can be enlightened. No body, no human thing can be enlightened. Because that is the reflection in Awareness. To be enlightened means to be the light, the source of light. Yes.

Yeah, Awareness is most ordinary. That's why it's so hard to communicate why this is important.

What's so great about it to half of humanity? More than half. Why are we talking about this? What we do with land — that is the problem. Yes. Sorry. We divvy it up. When we say "my Awareness," that is taking what is so fundamental, so real, and so amazing — and what can take you to that peace, to that love, to that realization of the nature of Reality — and it can be confused by that one single thought. That Awareness can be possessed. I can have my peace.

QThank you. Thank you. Thank you.

NIn the latest video. The way Janaka speaks, there are two sides to that little dialogue. That one part of the dialogue speaks to me, because the translation is so on and so forth. Chris asked me about Ashtavakra Gita in the email, and I told him I have never read it before. It's in the comments — somebody asked me to do some videos a while ago. I looked at it. I loved the first two chapters and I thought, "Oh, why is it going into asceticism again?" So I didn't do it. And someone else asked me again and I went back. But now as I'm doing the videos, they speak to me.

So when Janaka describes here, the first part of what he says is what Nisargadatta pointed out and took me there. No sense perceptions attract my attention. That is the... where you are gone, and then you realize I am here. But then the second part of his dialogue is just the most ordinary life. It's just life — doing and not doing. Who cares? I'm here. Whatever happens, I am here. That here is an absolute here.

Someone messaged me — I've got to reply — that they're still waiting patiently after hearing all this, and they're waiting patiently. How can you wait patiently to get here? You are here. The here is not a point in space or time. It is that out of space and time point where Awareness resides.

QYes. It's not there. Is it possible to function in the world being here all the time, or do you have to come in and out of it?

NThe world functions because of the Here. If there was no Here, there would be no world.

QI mean working, making money for my family and all that. Raising my kids.

NYeah. That's the body's job. It's doing it. It's been doing it. The Here is not an event in time. It's not going to happen in this life. The Here is the point in which this whole mind can even take shape. When Buddha has eliminated everything — for Bahiya there's still Here. He says you are neither here nor there. That's the space here. But then there is the Here in which there is the seeing and the hearing and the feeling. That Here is absolute.

He's just removed that framing because we think "here" is a point in space. I am a point in here, at a point in space, in time. Melbourne or Kent and so on. So to make it literal, you're saying... I am here, and when something needs to be done in this world, you do it. You're aware that you know, and you're aware that you're going to do what needs to be done. That's how it's always been happening. You are not doing anything once your identity is that you are the Awareness. You are aware. The rest is happening because you are aware.

In the actions that take place, it can seem that you are the one doing, or the one thinking, and all that. But you've seen past that already. That is all arising in Awareness. The thoughts arise, the actions happen, you as Awareness are purely just aware. You're making it possible. While the brain, the mind is confused, it thinks it has this question — like, how will I function, and so on. But then at the mental level there's also a kind of seeing. And the seeing is this: that I, as a brain — and now I'm going to take the other position, which is ridiculous, because that is not sentient — but as a body, I'm an instrument, I'm a machine, I'm a biological machine.

Nobody invented me. Over many years this amazing machine has taken shape, and in this one life it's been configured and so on. It's working automatically. Most things in the human body, we know, are just automatic — cells replicate, the heart beats, and you're not controlling any of that. There's a tiny portion that was wrongly assumed to be based on the desires or the intentions of a person. A small portion. Now that you see there's no person, even that is autonomous. It's autonomous. You are aware of it happening. You are aware of it so intimately that it feels like it's mine.

It's not actually wrong to say it's mine, because everything is yours as Awareness. Everything is intimate. When you know this one body, you know it so intimately that you only know this one body. This whole world, everything — this is one body's experience. Because again we're thinking in terms of time and space, it feels like: oh, then if there's another experience somewhere else, that must be some other Awareness. No — because Awareness is that point outside of space and time. Space and time exist in Awareness. Experience is always objective.

QYeah, sorry. The subtlety there is — when I say "I come out of here," I think that's the desire, the creativity. Like when I desire something and put my attention to it, it happens eventually. It's not me doing it, but something out there... things line up, events and all that, and I get to what I want.

NSo what I meant is: desire is also not yours. That's the tough one.

QYeah.

NHow can it be yours? The desire is also conditioned. It's also coming from this body, this mind.

QI see.

NNothing wrong with it — I'm not saying you have to stop it or whatever, but it's not yours. The only thing that is yours... the one quality that, if I took away, you would really cease to exist — what is that one quality? Awareness. That is yours. Because if I take that away, you do not exist. So that is your identity. That's what I mean by identity. That is you, and the rest is additional, extra. Whatever is additional and extra actually came later and is not you.

Q[unclear], I hope I'm not asking you something that you've already answered, but I've got to do it from my position. I still don't get "I am not the doer." That to me is my stumbling block. I think I'm getting understanding. I'm pure Awareness. That is my true nature. That is my true Self.

But "I am not the doer" — how do I separate that? How can I remain in the Awareness and see that I'm not the doer? Because I think I'm the doer. I'm convinced, in me, that I do all of these things. So how can that not be? How can I not be that?

NSo what can you do? Give me an example. What do you think you can do?

QRemain in Awareness, I guess... to keep going, remembering I am.

NBut you mean you can do that? You can remain in Awareness?

QI think so. I can — I...

NNo, you are already aware.

QPardon me?

NYes, that's the one thing you can do. You can remain aware. But give me an example of something else you can do. You can think. Do you think you're the one thinking?

QI think I'm the one thinking. Yeah, I think so.

NIf you meditate, you see — if you try to... okay, I'm going to stop thinking. It doesn't stop. If you're the one thinking, just stop it, can't you?

QNo. I can't stop my thinking.

NCan you control what thought will appear next?

QNo.

NYeah. It's all based on stimulus. You're aware of the patterns. The behaviors repeat because they repeat. They're kind of predictable, and there's a... because you had no distance to them, you can cast it in a way that "I'm the one doing it."

But there are many ways to see it's actually not true. You can't stop thinking. When my daughter triggers me just right, I will get angry. Who gets angry? It's just the way it works. I don't like messiness. I have to tell her not to be messy, blah blah blah. The right trigger to tick that part of the brain off — who is doing it? You can look at whatever you think you're doing, and your only role in it will be that you are aware as it happens. I have this weird theory about the role of Consciousness and so on. But it's theoretical, for me. It's — why did life need Consciousness anyway? Why didn't it evolve as zombies and robots? What's the role of Consciousness in survival? Because evolution made use of Consciousness. It abused it, in a way. Pain and pleasure. Why was it required?

There's a role. It's kind of like a feedback loop — that's how I see it. Once there's an experience, there's a feedback loop, and somehow that allows learning. I think I mentioned it before: in all the AI stuff we're training now, it takes a huge amount of computational power to actually adjust the weights of the model. So how does nature do it? How does it do it for free? It's doing it for free. There's no energy being expended on Consciousness. We can explain the whole system, and all the energy is taken care of. Consciousness is not taking any energy. It's a hack life found for that training process, through pain and pleasure. You can train somehow for survival and all that. So there's an intimacy. There's a connection to everything going on. You experience it so closely.

It's mine. I feel like it's mine. It's me — and that's fine. It's intimate. But it's not mine. It's not me. That's the one core fact that you need to see clearly. What am I in all this? In Awareness, there's no sentient entity. Who's going to control the thinking? Does Awareness think? No. Awareness does not think. It's just there. To have the idea of a thinker, we need a sentient entity. You need a self — the kind that does not exist.

QAfter watching your videos — and I've been watching a lot of them lately — to actually come to that point... "I don't exist," or what I've considered myself to be all these years. It's quite a big one to swallow. It's quite a big one to take on board.

I don't exist, and that I'm only Awareness, and that there's nothing else. Do you understand that? Hence me asking so many questions. That just stepping over that line is quite a lot of stuff to let go of, to clear out of the way, to abandon, to dissolve.

NYeah. No, that was — you know the video where I describe the lightning flashes. It's like that. It was one lightning flash and I'm done. I'm gone. I'm destroyed. I did not even exist. Destroyed what? Who can get destroyed when you did not even exist?

It's the one thunderbolt. It's just seeing clearly. So all I'm pointing out is just return to that one point. It's just clarity. It's easy — I mean, easy is the wrong word — but it's instantaneous. If there is no sentient entity, what are we talking about? All that ever happened was experiences passed through. That's not being denied. Experiences happened. What were you in it throughout it all? You remained as the Awareness. That is what you are.

QThank you.

NThank you, [unclear].

QI really don't want to ask a question, but I can see it's on the surface level. As you were sharing, I noticed... the body is sitting here and the legs are crossed, and then discomfort started beginning to happen. I noticed a thought — I was like, "Oh, I should open my legs." Then another thought came up like, "No, I shouldn't open my legs. I should just sit like this the whole time, as if it's more spiritual somehow." And then I kind of got sucked into it — like, well, I don't want to open my legs, but it hurts. And if I open my legs... well, no, I'm going to just tough it out till the end. And when you were sharing that, I thought — it's me, like I'm fighting with myself. And this happens all the time in my daily life: I should do this, I should not do it, I don't know what to do, I'm confused.

But as you were saying, you said something really beautiful. What is my role in all this? So when you said that, there was a little bit of stepping back. I could see a thought, because there's sensations, and it was like: I should open my leg, I shouldn't open my leg. And then it was — what should I do? This comes up all the time. What should I do? I don't know what to do. And then there's like...

But then you introduced another option I hadn't considered before — what's my role in this? So when I just observed it, I was like, should I open my leg? Should I not open my leg? It sounds so silly, I know. Even saying it sounds so silly, but to me it was very important. It was not silly. It was really important. So when it was like a stepping back... it wasn't like I'm neither. It was just observing it, and somehow the whole thing just dropped. I even forgot that I had that "what to do with the leg" thing. It just vanished for a few seconds — until I thought of it.

I don't know. I'm just reporting out loud what's happening.

NYeah, no, that's great. It reminded me — I went through the exact same thing when I used to meditate. And yeah, look — what have you noticed? It's very important. Your role in that is you are aware of two thoughts. What's going on? Look, the body has different systems with different priorities. There's the pain system. It's telling the neurons in your back or legs, reporting to the brain: pain — do something, pain — do something. The neurons are sending that information.

There's another thought, which is like a "I'm in charge" thought — "we're meditating and we cannot move" — and that has its own priority. Those two priorities are colliding right now. The brain has to reach a threshold where it will decide which one is more important. As long as it decides the meditation one is important, the pain one keeps saying: pain, pain, pain, pain, pain. So yeah, it happened to me in meditation. I realised — what's the point? Why should I sit in pain? That's just a position. And then you go deeper, because the pain goes away. But who's doing it throughout that? You're just allowing. Your role as the Awareness — as the mind begins to realise what you are — the decisions are simple.

You are this loving, present Awareness. When I say "loving," it's not just... it sounds like in spiritual circles we just add this word — but that is the nature of Awareness. There's a kind of open, peaceful affection there. If that bit of love enters this process, then the decision is simple. Let's reach a compromise — whatever conclusion the brain reaches. And you, as Awareness, are just observing the process. Your presence and the clarity of the mind — how clear the mind is in what you are — resolves everything.

QSo you said something about... So the role here is — it's not about shifting attention, is it? It's more that the mind has to be clear on what you are. You are the Awareness.

NLet's have a third thought. The two thoughts are fighting. The third thought should come in as the arbitrator. Well, who are we fighting about? Who is the Lord here? Who do we serve?

It resolves the problem. If you serve a self who has to meditate and stay very still and be very pious, then there's a problem. Once there's a realization there's no such self, then that thought — well, who is being served? Not a person.

QAnd you said something about love, that that brings a softness to this moment, a little ease. So yeah, that's what happened. Who do we serve? The thoughts should ask, who do we serve? Because then the thoughts which are irrelevant will just drop off. Can the thought which is preventing your leg from moving serve Awareness? No, it's causing more trouble. It's creating an annoying experience that's unnecessary.

So when the question was asked, who do we serve? — it was nothing, and it just dropped. That's what happened right now. It's just getting rid of the small stuff. Who cares? So even that — if I see that it's just a thought, then it's just back to just here.

NAnd then move your leg.

QMove my leg. I know. Thank you. Ah, it hurts.

NThank you, Vindu. Thank you.

QMy question is — you were talking about here and now, and when I envision here and now I'm always in the realm of time and space. Can you please explain a little bit more where I'm being caught in envisioning here and now as something that is in the realm of time and space, when it's not? Can you talk a little bit more about that, because that was beautiful.

NSure. So maybe let's go back to the Vajrasutra — what was talking about that really points out how "here" is not a point in space and time. Because the idea is we are seeing from a point, we're observing from a point in space. And on the surface level it's true, because whatever the scene you see, that's from a certain point. But it's like when you see a photo — it was taken from a different point in space and time, but now you're observing it. You don't have the same perspective as the camera at that point. It doesn't mean you're at that point in space. That's just with a photo. So the photo is giving the perspective which is true to the instrument. And that's the same with the eyes. What you're seeing is true to the instrument — the perspective is as of this body.

But where can sight appear? Can sight itself appear at a point in space? Because when you consider the scene, there's a space in which that scene is appearing. Now I'm using the other "scene" — S-C-E-N-E, scene. The scene is appearing in space. It's a visual space. Where can that visual space exist?

It does not exist in a physical space. Because when you dream, your body is lying there in a physical space. The dream appears in a subjective space. Where is that? So you question that all of this experience — everything here is subjective. This whole world is appearing in a subjective space. Same with any other world, any other experience, any other life — it must appear in the same way as a subjective world.

Where do these worlds exist? Now the physical space is irrelevant for this question. You've arrived at the question from turning inwards. Where does experience arise? When we go back to the point of what's called birth — at some point the first experience of this life appeared. Where did it appear?

That is not a point in time and space. When you get to that, you're arriving at the here and now, because nothing has changed since then. All that has happened since that point is experiences have been flowing past.

QHas that experience not happened in the brain?

NExperience has some correlation to what happens in the brain, but it cannot be in the brain. Can you contain an experience in a physical thing?

Can you bottle up a feeling? No. You can't quantify emotion. You cannot contain experience in a physical vessel. Yes, the brain activity correlates to what is being experienced. But that connection — why should there be any experience at all? That's the hard problem of Consciousness. There's no way to explain it in the normal view of the world. But ours is not a normal view of the world. Ours is that Awareness is fundamental. So when a brain works a certain way, it produces experiences, just because there is Awareness within which that instrument is operating.

Anyway, the question is: where does a dream world appear? It appears here. That is from where you are observing this life. And can that be a point in time and space? That's what you should consider.

QOkay. Thank you.

NAll right, we're out of time, I believe. Does anyone have any last questions or comments? Otherwise, we'll close off.

QNo, all good. Just wanted to say that. Thank you very much. Thank you, Nabeel. Thank you.