There is no me. There is only You. | Live Q&A on the Self [public version]

NAll it takes is a bit of clarity. Nothing much needs to change. Life can go on the same way. Continue to be messy. The mind can go about its business.

Only the standpoint is shifting.

Any image of self we had, what you thought yourself to be, that's what goes out the window.

So last time we were discussing this pointer, which is my favorite pointer, let's say, because I didn't read it anywhere — it just emerged. And it captures completely what I realized. It's quite simple.

So after you go... after you hear this, return to it a few times and see what it does, because at the beginning of the pointer and by the end, there's a standpoint you take at the start and there's one it ends with, and that's all it is.

It's just a change in that standpoint.

So this is the pointer.

There is no me.

There is only You.

There's only You.

You have to do this in your own mind.

Okay, sit with it. And your own mind says this. When I say "your own mind", I'm saying it loosely.

Okay.

There is no me.

When you said... when the mind says this, you're starting with the standpoint of being the one saying, the one speaking, the thinker. The normal self.

But that one is admitting there's no me. Now of course to admit that you will have to have come down this path very long, and have seen through all the illusion — there's no solid entity here that is conscious, there's no thinker behind the thought.

You've seen all that.

But often, you know, the mind is stuck there: okay, where do I go from here?

So that first part is the surrender. That's just it: there's no me.

And then, once you have given up that standpoint, yes, there's no me. There's no thinker. Who's saying this? It's just a thought.

And then that thought says, "There's only You." Instead of trying to come up with the next image of You or the next experience that will explain what You are and all that.

No, just stop.

It says, "There's only You." And when that thought ends, after surrender, it turns into kind of devotion. That's how I feel it.

And then there's quiet.

There's no next thought for a while. In that silence, whatever comes next, there might be a sound next, whatever comes next, You are as You are.

There's no image of You or thought of You, or... You don't have a name. You don't have a specific shape, nothing.

You are there, simply aware.

So when the mind says, "There's only You" and it stops, that is directly pointing at what You are: Just what is aware.

Anything then that comes back about this and that, that's "me", but there's no such me. That is the content of Consciousness.

There's only You.

And we do not need to define You or describe You further and so on, because in the moment it's very clear.

It should feel as if, you know, there's a kind of burden lifting in the first few times the clarity dawns on you, as if you had compressed yourself into this tiny space.

You tried to be something, be someone, and you don't need to, 'cause you don't have a shape. You don't have...

It's just a standpoint shifting.

Clarity dawns on You. And that's...

When it first dawns on You there's lots of happiness and joy and so on maybe, but even that it's not there... It's just... it's a side effect.

It's that standpoint shifting.

But then if life continues whatever way, that's just life.

The point is realizing what the Self is.

What are You?

Without giving yourself a name or an idea of you, or imagining you — just as You are.

All right, let's do Q&A.

Yes, Rachel.

QSo I understand the first part, that there is no me. No matter what level we go to with Self-inquiry, there is no me to be found. So I get that.

And I get to the point where the experience can understand there is Awareness before every sense experience or any experience at all. There's Awareness, then sight. There's Awareness, then sound and hearing.

And for the "you", there's a logical understanding.

I can't see me. My eyes just see you.

NSo see, when the first part ends —

QYes.

NIt's admitted there's no me.

QYes.

NThen thought has arrived at its final conclusion. It can't go further.

So we're not relying on logic or thought beyond that.

QSo when... so explain further what comes next.

NSure.

So when the next part, the mind says, "There's only You", it's taking its position as: yes, the mind came later.

QYeah.

NCannot understand or comprehend Awareness. It can only give it names and try to say, oh, it must be like space. All that is imagination.

And letting it go.

So once you stop at that "there's no me", give it up, surrender, "there's only You". The "You" is... the standpoint has shifted, like I said at the beginning you are the one speaking or thinking.

By the end You are only the one aware of that going on in the mind.

So when the mind ends at "There's only You" and stops, and there's no next thought, or no trying to think of what you might be, no trying to comprehend, then what is there?

QNothing.

NNo! You are there. How can there be nothing when You are there aware of...

QThere's nothing but Awareness. Because if there's no me, then this life is simply being lived by the form that was... that has emerged. But there's no identity with it.

NYes. So yes, that's what Awareness means. But the clarity comes from when Awareness stops... here's a shift in there too, where until that point Awareness was again something the mind was trying to comprehend.

It had given a name. This must be what the Self is. Let's call it Awareness. It's a working...

QThe labeling thing.

NBut when it says "There's only You", it's not saying "You are Awareness," you are this and that.

If we stop there, you understand not through the mind but just by being what Awareness is.

QSo that's where my confusion is coming in, and the cloudiness in the understanding, because my understanding switched to intellect to say that if there's no me, then there's no you. So how do I get beyond the intellect wanting to take over this?

NSo for me this is a pointer which formed after the fact. So maybe that biases me how I see it.

So right when you see it, and then this comes back, it's just... the answer is in the silence. Or it's like in Ramana Maharshi's pointer, "Who am I?"

He's actually building it after realizing what is I. When he says notice to whom the thought arises, and to whom did the thought arise?

QYes.

NTo I.

QYes.

NAnd then that follows with "Who am I?"

QYes.

NThere's no answer except the silence, and in the silence You are there as You are.

QRight.

NRight. It's pointing back to the Self without giving any name or any idea or any experience to it. There's no experience to being aware as a specific experience which must always be there. No, it's just... being aware.

QAs an entity there's none of that.

Okay.

NAnd so if you notice that — if you've really dropped and surrendered the me — and then you notice the mind says "There's only You", that's the Answer. That's what You Are.

And like you said, at that moment it's not the me, or even the personal you. That's where the confusion might be. This is not the personal you.

QThat is the confusion, because once I get to the "there is no me", I'm like: in every being there's no me. And so the brain is taking over to say, okay, so there's a you. What is that you?

And so the intellect is just pursuing a rabbit hole like a black hole. There's nothing there.

NThat's why I said after this ends, try to sit with it. Stay with it. You don't have to repeat it all the time, but return to it a few times, okay? Over a few days.

And I think what you might notice is when you end at... when the mind says, "There's only You" and stops, then there will be clarity. If it continues thinking and trying to comprehend, yes, then you're still in the loop.

QYes.

NBut there will be moments, and the ordinary ones, like when you know you're out for a walk, or you just have a glass of water, and you stop... something stops the mind from thinking the next thought.

QOkay.

NIf it ends here.

QUhhuh.

NIt's just... it's just clear, because it doesn't need words, description, if it stops there.

QYeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I'll give it a go. Thank you.

NThank you.

Marina.

QHi Nabeel.

NHi.

QNice to see you all, guys.

Okay. Now this is like a cherry on the cake this evening, the topic of this evening, and I have my notes, and I reread Perfect Brilliant Stillness, and this time the curiosity arose on Ramesh, because Carse quotes Ramesh quite often, like he was his first real guru in his journey anyway.

And I went to check Ramesh on YouTube because I had no other means, and I wrote this down because I need to keep track.

Okay. So for what I understand — and this may help the lady that just spoke, maybe, I don't know — so Ramesh keeps repeating over and over that: A.

You are not in control of anything. This is a mantra: you are not in control.

B. You are the result of conditioning — genetic, environmental, psychological. It's just... you are this mess of conditioning.

C. You are an object where the subject is God or universal Consciousness. And this was very deep, this understanding, for me at least.

And then D. You have apparently the free will, but it is counterfeit, which means you can make any decision you want, but the result of your choice is not in your control — but it's in God's control, or universal Consciousness, as you may like.

Basically you are being lived by God or Consciousness, and this is what I personally understood from Ramesh.

Then I went to check Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi, and I understood he suggested basically three practices for Self-realization, which were: One: pray intently to him, Ramana or God, focusing on the image with your spiritual heart — but that wouldn't work for everyone.

So there was the second: Self-inquiry, who am I, who am I.

And then the third, which I resonate very much: focusing attention only on the personal I, which is the me, what I think is me, and investigating on this I intently enough and long enough until it disappears into its origin — which I didn't get what the origin would be, but I don't even know if this is of any importance, because the end goal would be the dissolution of this quote-unquote I, this personal I, and by doing this practice you realize the Self with capital S.

This is Ramana.

In Ramana's teachings, there was a different take on the matter of subject-object, because you would say that all external phenomena, including thoughts, were object, and you have to discard them completely. Just not interested. No thanks. And just focus on the subject I, this personal I, and observe it, study it, question it on and on and on and on. And in doing so you realize the true Self, which it doesn't say what it is. It just... this is what I understand, and I'd like to know what's your take on this subject, and how, if possible, if the two different practices are linked, to perhaps have a bigger view, or if one chooses one or the other based on his own predisposition, and that does the practice.

And yet the final realization in both cases is the dissolution of you into God, universal Consciousness, and so from there on you are being lived.

NSure.

So just a bit of... so everybody knows, Ramesh was Nisargadatta Maharaj's translator for a long time. Ramesh Balsekar. That's... he himself became a teacher.

And David Carse, who wrote this book, he had his realization first, which was really disorienting because he had never had the practice before, and then he found Ramesh, and then he turned out to be his teacher.

And actually towards the end of the book you see how there's a bit of a fallout — they don't see things the same way either at the end — because Ramesh's view, in always talking about "you" like you were describing, he's talking to you as you are the mind or the body, and describing you're only conditioning, you, and then the Self he's describing as God, as... and I'm not saying he didn't realize, but when you speak like that, it's putting a distance again between what the Self is, what You are, and then this... it's universal Consciousness or God or something higher.

So that's why to me, in that, it's not that complicated. Once you realize, you don't think of yourself as God. That concept is also gone. There's no Universal Consciousness.

Because even that concept was wrong... if there were a Universal Consciousness, and that's what the mind keeps struggling with, if it were really like that, then all these minds should be connected, in that they should be like I should be experiencing your thoughts and your thoughts. And that's the idea of Universal Consciousness that the mind comes up with.

But what you realize, when you realize the Self, which through all means you realize the same exact same insight, if there's no me, I'm not conscious as a separate thing.

Then what is conscious here right now?

Yeah, you could go down the road of, yeah, that's God. That's God.

But who is saying, "That is God"? The one that says, "That is God" is still only a thought, and that is not I.

And what I am does not identify as being God. I as I, as You are.

QYou wouldn't... you wouldn't say you are God. Ramesh would just say you are an object. You are being lived. You don't have any kind of control in your life. So just drop it. You pretend to be in control but you're not. You are being lived. This is the main teaching of Ramesh.

NYes. So I'm saying that part: when, if I say "you are an object", who am I talking to?

Do I talk to the stones and the walls?

I don't want to talk to the object. What's the point of talking to an object? The object is not conscious.

I use the mind. Okay, there's an intermediary. The mind, which processes the information and then turns it into a thought, and You experience the thought.

There's the thought and the cognition of the thought. And anytime a thought is cognized, when its meaning is understood, the meaning is only ever understood by what is conscious, not an object.

QYeah. Yes. I agree.

NSo I want to talk to the Self. Why should I talk to objects? I never talk to objects. As soon as I realize something is not conscious, I stop talking to it. Isn't it?

So the mind is what he's addressing, which is... yeah, it's a way, it's a technique, sure, it can work. It's a style of teaching, let's say. But it can take you into... it can drag you down into the nitty-gritty.

And so his is... when they fall out a bit, in a way, David Carse and Ramesh, it's because Ramesh is stuck on this, what to David Carse is just a side effect, it's not the main teaching, but Ramesh just is continuing to teach new students about that, which is that you are not the doer. You're not the doer. And that's all he keeps pushing.

But to me that's just... it's just a side... it's a corollary. It's like, you know, when you solve a theorem, the other things it explains.

QYeah.

NIt's not the main conclusion.

It's just a side conclusion. Of course, if you are what is aware, you're not doing anything. You're simply aware. Everything arises because of what You are. But You don't do it. You don't take control of it.

And that's how Reality works. There's nobody in charge. There are laws according to which everything works. And You find your place in all that.

So, let's go to what you were saying about Sri Ramana Maharshi's methods and so on.

So to him the supreme one was always Self-inquiry. He always said that that is actually the only way, and the rest is... it's for if that's not working for you, for whatever reason, for a certain mind, he gives these other ways, which are also more focused on, you know, traditions in India, because people... there were beliefs, there's religion, so he's using all of that. But the primary method is Self-inquiry. What am I? Who am I?

So again, he never puts a distance between Self and, you know, what you realize. In fact it is closer. Yes. So that's why he calls it I-I. Even closer than what you thought was I is the true Self.

I-I.

The other method of focusing on the personal I and allowing it to dissolve is again... once it dissolves, it's an "it", and You are what's actually Self. I-I.

QYeah. It's like when you dissolve this personal I, quote-unquote, what comes up on the surface, so to say, is You: the Self, capital S.

But there is instead Ramesh... I was kind of confused because there was no aim to "You are That", "You are This", the Awareness. You are Awareness. He completely... it looks to me that he completely discarded, and just: you are being lived. You have no control. God is in control.

And it didn't... while instead Ramana Maharshi, in his guide, I mean his method is Self-inquiry: is okay, you discard all the object, you discard everything, no thanks and not interested, and you focus... I personally I resonate very much with the focusing of this personal... what is this? What is this I that is being troubled? What is this I that is reacting to this thought or this situation, whatever?

And it really resonates with me because it's an inward searching, and it really does work for me. In fact, I'm doing it and I'm very pleased of how much weight I'm releasing from this inquiry.

And at the end you then... what I understand, and this is just at an understanding level — I'm not really realized, not at all, not now — but I understand that keeping on the practice, keep practicing, in the end I, quote-unquote, dissolves, and what remains is I, is Self, is I, Awareness, what perceives, what is real.

And so just try to understand that...

NYes, that is correct. But it is extremely simple, and it can take place in this very moment, because the Self is of course here and is You.

The only thing is the mind which is trying to find the Self, comprehend the Self, has to stop.

And its stopping point is what you are seeing. There's no the personal self. There's nothing to find. No me.

That is it.

When it stops and says there's no me, you don't even have to say there's only You. Okay? Just stop there.

There's no me, and You are in the moment.

That is it.

QI agree. But then the mind starts again. So I find myself doing the search again, and so that's not... this is what I say, I keep doing the practice.

It's just a matter of doing the practice, practicing.

NYeah. The practice is to get the clarity to dawn in a way that you cannot say I can ever lose it again.

The mind will continue down its rotations, whatever revolutions. It's just going around a spiral. So it'll go here and there. Fine.

But you just realize: yes, That is the Self. This is Self. This, in the moment, I am aware.

Not I as a person, but I as Aware-ness. That is the Self.

The mind will always have... it cannot comprehend because it's not aware. It is what you are aware of.

QYeah. It's an object.

Right. Yes. Completely agree.

NYeah, that's fine. The same thing can sound like a very long and arduous arc. At some point you'll realize... The realization is of the Self, which means it's of what You are.

What You are right now.

Anyway if... what you're describing, yes, that's how it goes until... until it stops.

You realize that yes, this is how it is. This is how it is. Yes.

QThank you.

NOkay. Thank you.

Naader.

QHi Nabeel.

NHi.

QCan you hear me fine?

NYep. Yes. How are you?

QVery good. Thank you. Good to see all of the people here.

So when you say there's no me... yeah, the thing that says there is no me gets to the point of realizing that it's not conscious.

And then you... kind of resonates, because there is that thing that says... realizes that it's not conscious, has to get there... sees it... that there are moments that...

You... so you see, your mind is shut completely. You're out, and you're still there. And then the mind comes, that urge comes, arises and comes, and then comes, and okay, let me try to explain that moment that I wasn't there.

And then it realizes that, oh, I'm not that thing. I'm not That. Like, I just came after. The desire to explain this or understand it or something came.

I think by hovering around those points of oblivion and coming back and all that, I mean that thing realizes, and then it says, okay, now yeah, I can safely shut up. There is no me.

But then... and there is only you, and that you is... you're just there.

The mind tends... it wants to get up again and then try to, oh, I want to understand what was it like, I want to understand it, and then that pushes you to... again you're still making chatters and all that.

So staying in that, like I say, stabilizing in that, is just the mindfulness. Just, you know, you got to be like just laser focus on any chance you get to stay there, and that urge to explain it comes after, which is that thought, that portion that says there's only you.

Yeah. You shut up and you sit and you shut up, but then you want... the thing still arises, it still comes up, and sometimes tries to explain, okay, I understand what is that deal, like...

And I think this dance probably goes on for a little while until you completely settle. I don't know. Can you talk to that part?

NYeah, sure. So see, through relying on this mind, we come to rely on thought and logic and reasoning, and those are seemingly the higher powers of the mind. They're very effective.

But when there's a point where you comprehend something, okay, there might be thought leading up to the comprehension, but once you have understood it's just a conviction. You know that is how it is. You don't have to repeat it, and you don't have to rely on thought for it anymore.

Okay? So just hold that in mind.

There's a point where you understand, and beyond that you're not relying on thought for the understanding, because there's something to understanding which is... you couldn't say it's a thought which is appearing in the mind. It's just you have realized.

So when you're saying, like, you know this, you're slowly having these insights, you're hit by these insights, or "I was not there", and so on so forth — that is still thoughts trying to comprehend what has been understood outside of thought.

And you get to the point which is... I don't want to say conviction, because it's beyond, you know, being convinced of something, you can still be wrong about it.

But when you know something to be true, then whatever says otherwise — it can be what you consider to be your own mind or your own thoughts, even if they sound like they are confused or they're saying otherwise — you are standing from a point, You're taking a standpoint, where that is obviously just noise.

It's just chatter. It's not true.

You can have your own mind trying to question, or trying to start to question again, and you're standing from such a firm, absolutely true position, having understood, that all those thoughts are just dropping. They can't gain their power.

Who are they talking about?

It all comes down to: Who is listening? Who is aware of this moment?

And so that simple pointer — "There's only You" or, "Who am I?", "To whom is this thought arising" — all those, they just rise up to the moment if the thoughts are trying to question again, and it's just abundantly clear what You are.

QTell me one thing. So that... you said you get to comprehend... who's that you? Like I mean if the Self does not comprehend... like that is still that essence of mind, like something in the mind... that's why they call it essence of mind, that's this mind itself is getting to a point of...

NLook, whatever comprehends has to be conscious. If you're not conscious you cannot comprehend anything.

So if we're taking the mind to be the thoughts, the feelings, the sensations and so on, they cannot comprehend anything. They are the phenomena being observed.

It is the Self which understands. The Self realizes Self. There's nothing else which can comprehend.

Take a thought. What is a thought? It's an image. It's some words. It's maybe... what is a thought until it is understood?

It's nothing. Yeah. It's just words with symbols pointing to what? Pointing to experiences.

Who can have the experience? Only the Self.

QGot it. Got it. Got it. Got it.

NWhen a thought... when thoughts combine, lead up to a realization, the realization is only ever had by the Self.

Now if thoughts are in control of a certain dream and they're stitching together... and they're based on ignorance, then what the Self is experiencing is just the dream, with no knowledge of what the Self is.

Awareness has no thoughts of its own, and it's not... no feelings of its own. So if there's a drama going on and in it the drama says, "Oh, you are this meek little thing and you're disaster, you're such a failure, blah blah blah" — that is the experience in that dream of that character, that first person.

But if in that dream it's pierced by these pointers that come from all these wisdom teachings, yeah, there's... it's like, there's a glitch in the Matrix, and You start to see: oh, what is this?

Where is this me that is supposed to be the disaster?

QYeah.

NIt is the Self. It's always the Self that can experience. Only the Self.

When the Truth dawns on You, when the Truth dawns on You — it dawns on You what You actually are. And that is why it's the liberation. It's the great liberation.

Why are you liberated? Because you were carrying this fake persona as if this is what I am.

Yes, sure there's a persona. It's not what You are.

So that's why I say when the mind says, "There's only You" and just stops there, that is the Truth. You heard that thought. You comprehended it. That is what You are. The Awareness. What thought doesn't say is how...

because the thought cannot realize it, is how amazing it is that the thought can be recognized, like it can be understood.

How can words have meaning? How can a word have meaning?

QYeah.

NWhere does meaning come from?

There's no meaning to a thought without the Awareness of the thought.

And where's the intelligence except in... it's the essence of Awareness. It's not separate. It's not like there's the intellect which tries to understand and then there's the Awareness. We break those things down to try to get to the point.

But that intelligence, ability to understand and know and experience, it only belongs to the Self.

QYes. Thank you.

NThank you, Naader.

I might go to Hannah. Hannah first.

QHi.

I am not entirely sure how to say that.

Okay. Actually using one of your talks that you gave called "So What".

I think that a lot of the time where we think we're confused, it's just that "so what" kind of expressing, until that kind of shifts, like you said. Like we can think we're confused, but there's just this little kind of tantrum playing itself out.

NI like how in Buddhism they call these things mental formations and fabrications.

When you take this standpoint of, yeah, I'm just... I'm nothing. I'm purely what is aware, but at the same time nothing in terms of objects. And then you see that confusion.

That confusion is fabricated.

You can actually start to pull the thread out of it. What's the confusion about?

Yeah. It's the same way like whatever... like we expect you will realize and the mind will sort itself out. But actually you realize and then you see how the mind makes... has all its flaws, where it goes wrong.

If you want to, you can try to fix them. It's not the real point of passing this on. Yeah. We're just passing on a bit of clarity. But you can.

Confusion has its remedy. Anger has its remedy and all that. And it's always in taking the right standpoint.

QYeah.

It took a little while to sort of... for that "So What" video for it to really sink in that there wasn't actually confusion.

It was thought that might help some other people as well. It was a tricky one here anyway. But thank you.

NThank you.

All right. So we have Core Media Productions, and Marina with the hands up. Who wants to go first?

QOkay, I'll go if it's okay.

NOkay.

QThe question I have for you is: how long did it take you to go into the I Am, and is there any technique that you use to get in there? And also the second part: how was the experience of the I Am for you?

NSure.

So to say "I Am", it's not actually pointing to a specific experience. It's just pointing to the fact that you are. You are.

You explore it first. When this pointer first comes to you, it's just to point you back away from all the experiences, everything you think you are, back to the core fact of your existence.

You are. In what way are you?

You're going to the root.

You are not in terms of... first of all, you cannot deny that you are. I am. I am. Yes, of course I am. That's the whole problem. If I was not, there would be no problem.

In what way am I?

And the first thing would be: I'm conscious. Hence all this experience. You're conscious, you're here, and the experiences are coming and going and things are changing, and that remains constant.

So that I Am is pointing back to this fact of being conscious and being present.

Then from there there's the question of: What are you that you happen to be conscious and present?

And that brings into question all of the assumptions you had: that you were born, that you're a being with the body and your person, then you will die, and so on, and there's some Great Beyond. All that comes into question once you focus on this fact: I Am.

How could I be born if I can't find a particular thing that I am? Can Consciousness be possessed by a thing, when all the things you know of are phenomena being observed?

So the pointer to I Am is not really to point you to a specific experience, but to point you back to the core fact of being, what it means to be, and question that and figure out what the Self is, what you actually are, that you happen to be conscious and here.

But when we do this, yes, there is experiences, and initially those are helpful. So you will feel, oh, there's this sudden glow in my heart. You might feel that. You might feel, oh, when I reside in the I Am, I'm so much at peace.

And those are helpful, but they are just states of mind where things are calming down because you've turned away from experience and you're turning towards the truth.

Then the step is to go deeper and realize what it's pointing out.

QSo it's pointing to Awareness afterwards?

NYeah. It's pointing to Awareness. Yes. But when you get there, Awareness stops being the word Awareness, or the thought of a field of Awareness. And you realize You are the Aware-ness.

Because You are what is aware. You are the Aware...ness.

And all the things came later. The name came later. The idea of what you are came later and all that.

That's your Original Face before you were born.

QSo, how long did it take you to get to that point?

NWho got to the point though?

QNo, I mean the Awareness. I mean, did it take you years, or...

NSure.

So I'm 41 now. Okay. So this, in terms of this body-mind, 41. So I guess it took... how many years has been like 30-something years to get there.

QOh.

NLook, as soon as a child is born the confusion is about to begin. The "I am" is there. What I am is not known.

So first you build the wrong image of yourself. At some point you start to question it.

For me the questioning was pretty long, but the focused questioning, where you start to read these like Nisargadatta and Ramana, that was about three years.

When you come upon these, if you can really follow what they're saying, try to comprehend what they're saying, it doesn't take long.

It was about three years from me finding Nisargadatta to me saying okay, I don't need to read this anymore, to all the stuff having happened, you know, all the experiences which feel like oh this must be it but are not actually it, to then you finally realizing you don't actually need an experience, because it's just pointing out the nature of Self, the nature of Reality.

QSo it's more a matter of relaxing into your being? Is that it? I mean, just...

NNo, I don't believe relaxing, is it.

QNo, I mean going into this being, just being.

But how does that translate to being enlightened?

NRight. So two things to that.

First is it's not just relaxing into the being, because then you're kind of stuck in that, the stateful part which I was saying, where you start to feel the calm states and the happy states and you're saying, oh, you associate that with focusing on this knowledge I Am.

But the knowledge was just pointed out for you to go deeper, to find out the truth.

So there should be an urgency. You shouldn't expect you have a long life to live yet. You should say I want to know the truth in this moment.

And to do that, you discard all the experiences, focus only on this sense, the knowledge I Am, and find out what it's pointing out.

Okay? So that's the mindset. There's an urgency to wanting to know the truth while trying to stay calm.

You're holding two things together.

It's not expecting a special state or experience or anything, or a bang, big-bang realization, but you do want to know: how did I come to be? What am I? Those kind of things.

Kind of forgotten what was the other thing...

Look, there's no final state. There's no... when you say Enlightenment, Enlightenment itself was a useful idea.

Because otherwise the mind was stuck on trying to achieve something in this life. So you give it a mission which is about understanding, realization, become enlightened. It's a different kind of ideal than the material track. You can go on both actually at the same time.

Enlightenment gets you to question. It gets you to aim higher. When you think you've got there, the Enlightenment will push you a bit further. It'll ask: Have you really got it? Have you really got it?

And you've got all these ideals like Buddha and Krishna and so on. Jesus. They will push you so far, because you look up to them. You hold them so high that you must really be enlightened before you can let go of the idea of Enlightenment.

QRight.

NIn the end, in the end, Enlightenment was just an idea because it was a wrong idea. It was trying to say there's some special state, or there's some enlightened beings and others are not enlightened.

But that's not what you find.

QYeah. I see. Okay. Thank you very much.

NThank you.

But it reminds me of a Zen koan. So I'll touch on that before I go to Marina.

So in Zen there's this koan: What is Enlightenment?

And the answer is... I don't know if I can say it on YouTube.

It's a dried shit-stick. A dried shit-stick.

Because they didn't have toilet paper back then, so they would use the stick.

What is the point? So okay, so the stick is quite useful when you need it. Otherwise, yeah, it's quite embarrassing, you got to clean up.

So the stick is very essential. You have to clean up. But once you have used it, it has no purpose whatsoever and must be discarded.

QRight.

NSo in modern terms: What is Enlightenment? It's toilet paper. Use it. Flush it.

QRight. Right. Right.

NIt's quite accurate.

QThank you very much.

NThank you.

Marina.

QYes. I just wanted to add really quickly: for me, one realization has been really important, is to really distinguish what... when I say "I feel this", "I thought that", "oh I'm embarrassed", "I'm shy", "I am nervous" — this I is just an object.

For me it really... it did change something for me.

It's like it's not the real me. It's not what I am, who I am. It's just an object. An object talking, thinking, believing something, getting angry, or whatever. It's just an object.

And that really cleared a lot of confusion: which one am I now? For me it's clear.

I repeat, I'm not even slightly... I don't want to mean for myself to be any close to enlightenment, but this I understand very clearly.

So this for me is very important.

NYeah, that's very good. The main thing is seeing what you thought of as the subject, as me, was an object.

QYeah, exactly. Yes.

Yes.

NYes.

Okay. Then the next thing you can do there...

The next thing you can do there is see that there actually are no objects at all.

QWell, this is the next step, Nabeel. This is the next level. Please don't stretch it too far.

Just let me enjoy this, and then I think it all...

Anyway, thank you.

NNext episode.

QNext episode. Thank you.

NRachel.

QI understand, Marina. I totally get what you were trying to share with me.

But because I grew up in a Hindu home, and I'm talking about the Hinduism that came to the Caribbean in the 18th century. It came there and it stuck in that form. So my grandfather was a Hindu priest, and I learned all of this enlightenment... of course, you're aware, Nabeel, it's about the Krishna Consciousness and, you know, all of these things that we grew up learning: that God is the ultimate, the Paramatma, the Para Brahma, all of that.

So having that foundation, my aspiration was: okay then I have to become one with God, because that's what the religion taught. You are a creation of God.

And so what I am usually stuck at is the intellectual barrage of wanting, craving logic and craving rationale. And that is such a hiccup in my way.

So I understand what you were saying about there is no me. I get it. I can see Awareness before my sight begins to identify and label. I can see Awareness before I hear something and the sound comes in. I can see Awareness as before everything.

But the question is, in this intellect: if Awareness is everything, logically, there's no me. And if Awareness is everything, then there's no you either.

And there is no anything. There's just Awareness. And the human conditioning and intellectual development over civilizations has created this really strong process of everything must have a label, and then everything must have rationale, and everything must have logic. Yet it's all fiction created by the intellect for the body to survive.

So that's... I get the illusion part of it.

NWhat is the question left?

QBut that's where I'm stuck, because the illusion and the intellect has such a stronghold that it would not... it keeps grabbing the attention. It keeps grabbing the attention and asking questions, even though the questions are... and I know the question is... and it's all just a distraction.

How do we stop the distraction?

NThe questions might not be... so you've got to... is there a good question there?

If there's a good question there, it's worth asking.

If, like for me as well, I have a very intellectual kind of mind. So if there's a question which causes doubt, yeah, that this might be wrong, then why not try to see if that question can be resolved?

For me all questions resolved. There's no way doubt can survive.

QThere is no doubt.

There is no reason and rational and intellectual explanation that can even pierce what Awareness is, and that Awareness is all. There's no intellectual question to pierce that.

NLook, if we go into, let's say, metaphysics. You start finding the mind is thinking about cosmology and all.

QYes. It went there. Absolutely. It went there.

Help me.

NAll of that too. All of that too can be resolved. You don't need to publish scientific papers because the starting assumptions are very different. But it's all... for me it all cleared up as well.

It's not you repress the questions which are arising, but you meet them from the right standpoint.

QThey're empty. The questions are empty of substance.

NLook, yeah, it depends what the question is, but it could be...

Maybe Awareness can be possessed by things. How would you know? How would you know that Awareness...

Yes, while you're aware, it's like the puddle question. While the puddle is there, it's thinking, oh, this world is so perfectly shaped to me. I just fit this world so perfectly. Exactly. Precisely. It's all me. The world is all me, to the puddle.

And then the sun comes out and it's shrinking. It's evaporating. And it's still all... it's still perfect. It's still me. It's all me. Nothing's happening to me. I'm not changing.

Until it's a little speck and then it evaporates. It's gone.

That's the puddle. That's Consciousness.

So there are some good questions to ask, because it is very easy to mix up Consciousness which is appearing and disappearing, and saying, oh, Consciousness is all there is, and then your guru says Awareness, so then the mind replaces a word, but actually it's believing the same thing. It's now saying Awareness is all there is.

I'm not saying you're doing that, but it can very easily...

QBut that has to be explored, because Consciousness is what I grew up with. The Consciousness, the universal Consciousness, the devis and the devatas growing out of that, and the embodiment of God and all of that. Yes.

Yes. To be able to have that as part of conditioning and being so heavily focused on intellectual analysis... the intellectual analysis can be so subtly put into misunderstood, and that could be what I'm experiencing, and it isn't actually recognition of Awareness at all, because there's so many complicated stories that I grew up with, with the Vedas and all of these things, and not understanding it because I heard it as a child. So I understood it as a child.

NYeah. So to understand Awareness, it's quite simple.

We get the mind to say there's no me.

That's the intellectual part. It's understood there's no me. That can be done through the intellect.

QYes.

NThere's only You.

QSee, I want to replace like that. That's... I would replace like that with "There's Awareness alone".

NYeah, but that to me sounds... that's suspicious, because I'm thinking that's probably going into that third-person view of Awareness as a universal field or something like that.

If you cannot associate the Self with Awareness, then this... like when that hesitancy to call Awareness "You" by the mind, it's still splitting hairs.

QThat's exactly it. Yes, you got it. That's it.

NYeah. There's no separation between what the Self is and what Awareness is.

The mind, it's imagining what Awareness is. It's trying to... oh, it must be universal field. It must be bigger than this universe. It must hold all of the multiverses in it.

Of course it's not you. It's not you. You're not that. Nah.

QRight.

NAnd then looks in the other way, and looks in the other way, because it can't look at You. You have no shape. You don't take up a point in time and space.

QRight.

NIt's trying to find something huge, something magnificent.

QAnd it's not there.

NWhat is magnificent is beyond space.

QIt doesn't know what it's visually looking for anyway. It can't imagine it.

NYeah. So look, let's go back to the puddle thing.

QLet's go back to the puddle. Okay.

NBecause to me, that was a good question. Maybe I'm deluded. Maybe it's all delusional.

QYeah.

NAnd I'm thinking, oh, I'm this and that. Actually, it's just a puddle and eventually it'll fade away.

QYeah.

NAnd that question should not be repressed. Otherwise we are again cultists and, you know, we're starting a new religion and so on.

The answer is quite clear once you see I'm not thinking in terms of me. If you really not think in terms of me — if the puddle is not thinking of itself but the real world, The World, not its little boundaries. I'm not thinking of Nabeel... I'm seeing what it means to be aware.

It means you're not something at a point in time and space, because you can't locate yourself. You cannot locate what is aware. Where?

Everything is appearing. And for anything to appear, Awareness must be present. Fundamental.

QMhm.

NWherever it rains and there's a new puddle.

Yes. Must be there. Must be there.

And that's how the puddle can realize the Truth. When the puddle realizes the Truth, then it really is not just, you know, it's not just thinking in terms of those boundaries. It can evaporate.

Yeah, sure. I can evaporate. I'm like water. I'll become clouds. Who cares?

You see, all these questions can be answered. It's worth exploring many of them.

QOkay.

NInstead of repressing them.

QOkay. Thank you.

NThank you.

QAnd I will spend some time with that "You" question, because there is that splitting-hairs problem intellectually that I'm engaging in and creating another distraction for myself.

So okay, thank you so much. I appreciate that.

NThank you.

Srikanth.

QHi, Nabeel.

Well, can I ask you a personal question, if you... can I ask... and given how much you know and sort of understanding of the truth that you have, can I ask how do you deal with some sort of crisis situation that probably might... I mean, not that this should happen, when it happens in your closer surroundings, one of your loved ones... what is your state of mind?

I just need to understand, because with you... I know who you deal with in terms of people dependent on me.

NMhm.

QYou be able to walk me through your state of mind if you don't mind.

NSure. Yeah. So crisis situations are, of course, crisis.

I don't expect myself to remain perfectly like at some superhuman level as I go through them. The mind will do what it does.

If there's... yeah, like Rachel is saying (in the chat), like Nepal (flash flood 2026). So that would be like... that's the more extreme case.

But there of course bad things continuing to happen. My parents are old. They're going through some medical crisis. You have all these things keep happening.

The objective is not to remain in some perfect state. You should not expect I will stay in a state of bliss while all this happens, because again that would be selfish, the wrong kind of self.

It's just to see all this from the right standpoint. From that I'm not going to budge.

I know what the Self is, what I am, what everyone I love is, what You are, what anyone is, anything.

We just maintain that standpoint. You can't budge from it once you've seen it.

And then whatever is going on, yes, that's how life works.

And this mind and all, it's the body and everything that's still based on all the conditions, all the causes, all that. You're not expecting it to completely change.

But the clarity is... that's the clarity changes things. Whereas previously I would panic much more, previously I would feel grief differently. It's not that I cannot feel grief, but there's a difference when you know what is permanent and what is... it has always been changeful.

QYeah. Yeah. And thanks for... right. And the reason I ask that, Nabeel, is... I mean looking back at the history there's been people who've been realized, and for example if you look at Ramana, we see Krishna, Jesus, Buddha, they all lived a completely different... I mean their expression of life was completely different in certain ways.

One of them continued to act as a strategic king, destroying like half the enemies, and the other one went on to live a much more peaceful life.

And so I was keen to understand how someone who's sort of seen through the truth can exhibit something that is more operational in real life that can impact... that's example, corporate job, for example.

NSorry, what was the last part?

QFor example, someone who's seen through the truth, how would they go through a corporate life, for example? Because you got to do sometimes... you got to do things, sometimes you got to take decisions which may impact other people.

NMhm.

So look, when the realization hits You, the mind is still the same. Only its ideas of self are wiped out.

Okay. Then you start to operate again from the standpoint which was always true, but you were kind of ignoring it.

Now from there you'll find you had built certain talents over a lifetime which were mostly being wasted because you were too busy with all your thoughts and all your problems and all your concerns.

But now you have a way to drop all those thoughts and problems and concerns. Yeah. That's what I mean by clarity.

So all these talents you had already built. The Buddha had a very rare set of talents. He was a prince. He had all those... he had meditated for years and all that. And he put all that he could then use with the clarity.

For me, you know, I've read all this stuff. I've had interest in science. I was until... and I was still very socially anxious. I could not talk. Public speaking made my ears red and... it was the worst fear. And now I love doing it.

You find that you had built a talent and you would be good at it, but it was being wasted because of all your inner conflict, and the inner conflict goes, then whatever mind is built... it's actually every mind has something precious in it, and you can use those talents.

Now about making decisions which affect other people and so on: the thinking is no longer about people. It's about yes, you want to do less harm. You want to do the best you can. But then there's also the recognition of how life actually operates.

QYes.

NLike luckily humans are omnivores. What if we were carnivores? Could you ever have the kind of traditions we have? Oh, you cannot eat meat and so on. That's just the play of life, and you operate in it the best you can.

But you have... you're free to use your energy, your body, your mind the best you want.

QYeah. Thanks.

NI had one friend who was on the same path. So he was very on the precipice himself. So after I started this channel, we started talking and I nudged him over.

But for him, the energy played out very differently. He spends almost... like his mind is freed, but he puts all his energy into his work and into sports. And yeah, he's living a very normal life. Nobody knows what he's realized because he wouldn't share it.

But he is freed. That is the liberation. There's many ways you can use it.

Andrew.

QThank you.

NI can't hear you yet.

Looking forward to your follow-ups from last time.

Yeah, might be you've got the wrong microphone selected.

Any other questions while we wait?

QI was interested to hear how you experience grief differently.

I know that like for me things like grief and anger, everything got much worse for a while once the illusion of some kind of utopic experience was seen through.

And it's like, oh, there's... so all of this, and it's only just starting to be okay.

Just as it is. But it seemed like for a while that things just got a lot worse. A lot worse with the clarity. And the clarity wasn't good to run from it, you know.

NSo the way for me they got worse is... it's just... it's much more in focus when it's there, because your mind is emptier.

So when it... what's there is experienced much more fully.

QYeah.

NBut where they are much more easier to deal with is that it's perfectly clear that nobody is born, nobody dies, nobody is to blame for the wrongs, whatever happens.

Yeah. It's just nobody's being born, nobody's dying, and the Self is absolute. Of course, that's a great relief.

QYeah.

NGrief is all about losing someone you love forever, not knowing whether they continue to exist. Then that story is gone. Nobody was born.

Even if the Self lives a life where there's no knowledge of Self, every moment is describing what the Self is.

It's beautiful. Every life is an expression of the nature of Self, nature of Reality.

Anger, anger at who? At whom?

Still of course the sparks of anger, where... but that's just the mind again falling down its path.

You can help others who have a harder time dealing with anger, because even without sharing all this, like you can nudge them.

It's... yeah, the clarity is in really standing firm at that standpoint that there is no separate self. Not possible.

Once that is not possible, then all these wrong emotions, they're fueled by thinking the wrong way. Who can you be angry at?

QStory for a long time was just like angry at the silence, that it allowed everything. It allowed everything. It's still like "it-ing" it, personifying everything.

NYeah, that's the thing. The personification.

Angry at the silence is again putting you at a distance. You are the Silence.

And then who is angry?

QYeah, it was very vicious for a while, and it was at the Self.

It's interesting that it can sort of happen that way depending on how the mind is conditioned.

Recognizing that there is no you in the view... that was like I'd had the amazing direct experience of that, but then being able to actually just see no experience, no experience of that, no magnificent kind of light-filled experience of that is necessary, because it's obvious all the time.

Anger, sadness, happiness, joy... thank you.

NYeah. Yeah.

Andrew, can you get it working yet?

QIs it working now?

NYes, it is.

QFar out. I'm a bit computer illiterate...

Hi Nabeel.

NHi.

QMy question is about Heart.

There's so many pointers about like returning to the Heart, and whenever there's kind of references to it, there's a pointing to the Heart.

I know that Awareness is... kind of no location to Awareness. And I know that the references to Heart are pointing towards Awareness. And yet there's a reference to Heart as in Heart, you know...

Can you explain a bit about that?

NYeah, sure.

So there is the feeling of the center. Like in this world, which is subjective, there's a center. And the center obviously is not the sun over there, which is why humans have been confused for so long. The center feels must be here, must be near.

So in introspection the center you find is somewhere here. So it was here for myself. It is here for Maharshi, it was two fingers to the right. But mine's a bit in the center.

But that is just what, in the mind, where you feel is the center of your being.

We are practicing introspection. You're turning the mind upon itself and questioning: where's the root? Where am I?

And to find a location is not wrong. It's helpful. 'Cause in the mind, when you start, you want to work with something a bit more substantial than otherwise it's just ideas. It's just thoughts.

No, feeling is better than thought to work with.

I am. Where do I feel it? I feel it in my heart. What is the Heart?

How big is it? In terms of length and breadth it's not very big. But how about depth?

Yeah. How deep is the emotion?

QDepth?

NYeah, depth. How deep is it? Depth.

QOh yeah. Depth. Yes.

NThat's one of the dimensions I work with, used to work with quite often. Like, sure. Okay, I found this point. It's not very significant. It can't be the center of the universe because it's right here.

But how deep does this go?

How much can I feel? Both pain or happiness, bliss, whatever. All kinds of things. But consider the depth of all that.

Is there a bottom? Is there a bottom to this?

And you've found a point which is like pointing to infinity, and it's not out there. It's right here.

Why is it here? Why is it... how can it be here?

That's where introspection is taking you, because all everything you were finding was out there. Everything that was great and big was out there. Now you found this might just be a tiny point, but it has no bottom, and it's going all... all infinity is somehow pouring out from there.

You start to feel it's pouring out from here. Yeah. It's your anchor.

QAnd yet whenever there's attention goes to Heart, it feels somehow as if Heart is other than Self. It feels as if there's something looking at it.

Obviously.

There's still... there's still division there.

NYeah, that's fine. So you first of course you've noticed: if I'm observing this, it cannot be what I am.

Whatever You observe cannot be You.

So yes it... but it was an important step along the way to realizing what is Self. You found that anchor, the point all the way to infinity, the bottomless pit.

It's not a pit though. It's something beautiful to dive deep there.

So you dive. You dive.

QSo generally the idea of meditation when pointing to the breath, that's bringing attention to the Heart pretty much, to that space in which all emotion arises, and all... like it's really just emotion that seems to arise from Heart.

NIt might feel first yes that it's just emotion, but you start to feel maybe it's more. Maybe it's more.

Yeah, because you're stuck in the thought, and the thought feels it's here (in the head).

But look, let's go back to what I started with, because it's actually connected to the Heart.

When the mind says there's no me, there's no me... okay, that's this part (head). It says there's no me. And if you're sitting and meditating with the Heart. And if the mind says this "only You", it's only You, it's saying it to the Heart.

When it says it to the Heart, your world will flip in a way. It's not... you haven't gone very far. You've gone from here (head) to here (heart). How far was that?

But it flips. Now you don't see the Heart as, oh, it's only where emotions are or whatever. It was actually... there was nothing up here (head). There was nobody in there. Nothing to do with Self.

QYeah.

NWe were... you were observing the thoughts.

You're observing what was going on in there. When the mind says to the Heart, there's only You, then the Heart is no longer here (a point in the body). That's when it just... it just consumes everything.

It actually becomes the Heart-Cave. There's the Heart-cave, and in it everything is appearing. Everything is in the Heart. Not just the emotions, the sights, the sounds, the thoughts, they're echoing in the Heart-Cave.

And then you could still... the Heart-Cave.

QIs that not the same as the head? I mean I often get sensation in the... like up here as well, and attention can go to that, and there's also kind of infinity there as well, or like in fact attention if it goes to any part of the body can somehow go into that sense of like depth that you...

NYeah. So that's why I'm saying it doesn't matter. Like Nisargadatta felt it here. You... yeah, you might feel it elsewhere. Whatever.

The location was never important. It was that it was close to you. It was not far apart, and that it has this link all the way to infinity. That's what was important.

QSo the reference between head to Heart, that's more a reference of like thinking to feeling.

NThinking to diving into the depth of your own being.

Whatever point you feel, it might just be here. Yeah. Whatever chakra takes your mind's... you know, if it's that particular mind's whatever preference.

But it's taking you from the external and the ability to reason and think and taking that to be the highest way to understand Truth and Reality, to turning inwards and just seeing Reality as It is, because it cannot be at a distance.

You cannot know Reality from a distance. You cannot comprehend it from a distance.

You can only know Self by being Self. You can only know Reality if you are in touch with Reality.

It's just that flip from external to internal, from there's no me as a thing to there's You as obvious, undeniable You that is aware, without form, never changing.

It's just a way to flip it. I think it's a very effective way. It's a very powerful way.

That's the thing the mind will keep getting stuck at. It will still differentiate between you and Awareness, you and Reality, the Self and whatever is here.

QAwareness seems to be a shape-shifter. Seems to take on whatever the mind is throwing at it. Somehow it takes the shape of it, like...

NSo look. So when the way the mind thinks of seeing is like, look, I'm seeing an object. It feels like that: I'm seeing an object.

In truth that is not sight. Sight is not seeing objects. There's actually never that kind of sight. It does not exist. It's imagined. Yeah, that's not... sight.

If you trace sight, what is actually happening? The whole process the science describes. That still happens fine. But sight only takes place when that activity in the brain is experienced.

So sight is never looking at an object.

It is observing a life form.

QLike a reflection, or some... or like... it's happening in the head somehow, or...

NIt's not happening in the head.

Look, the process, the physical process, you could say yes, the brain activity is happening in the head. Yes.

QYeah.

NBut then that activity is experienced.

Yeah. Awareness comes to know what is going on in the head. Why? Because it's still one, the whole one Reality.

There's one Reality, and the base Reality is Awareness. So when you have this process taking place in Awareness, it is observed. That observation is the sight.

The sight is not seeing an external object. Sight is Awareness knowing its own forms.

QUhhuh. Uhhuh.

So the bubble of light in which all the forms are appearing... like that's the Awareness, almost like the movie screen with all the objects within it. The whole of it is the Awareness.

So you could say like Consciousness was sort of translucent in a sense, like almost like water, like being... so I guess the reference to being in the ocean or something is close to description of Awareness. It's what brings light to everything.

NYeah. It is like the ocean knowing its own waves. There's ripples. Every ripple is known. Every ripple is known.

It's in fact like a very calm lake where there's a few ripples here, a few ripples there. So each of those ripples will be known in their own place, in their own form.

It's the lake that knows.

So when the mind admits there's no me, and then you say... and it says there's only You, we are shifting that standpoint the right way up, the way it was supposed to be, what got confused, and You are that lake, the ocean.

Heart is to help you see how deep You are. Don't go by the appearances.

Yeah, because even the sight, it's so confusing. I'm looking at all these objects, but that's not what's happening. And you have the knowledge to see it that way. Both the intellect and the Heart can agree.

QMind is jumping all over the place.

NYeah, mine too. I missed the thread there. Actually, I wanted to connect that back, but I forgotten what I wanted to connect it to.

QIt gets tricky to ask the right questions and then actually receive the answers, because the mind is somehow like it's just jumping in the way all of the time, growing up different ideas and different conclusions, and it's kind of hard to get it out of the way to really hear what's actually been said.

NYeah, that's why we must always return to something which was very simple and which resonated.

So when I say there's only You, and if your mind says that and you stop there, it's very simple.

There's only You. Who in that moment hears the "you"? "There's only you", who hears it, who understands it?

That is what You are.

So you return to that again, and then you explore: Yes, what am I at that point? What am I at that point? And that is the truth. That is what You are at any point.

And then all these questions we face with that, from that standpoint: Yes, it's because I'm not a thing. I'm not an object. The subject is also an object. And then actually there are no objects, because everything is forms of Awareness.

And then when I stop and the mind says there's only You, when it stops and says it's only You, well I'm what is aware.

It all comes together. Yes, this is the explanation of Reality.

QThere's a seeing of all of that, Nabeel, and yet at the same time there's this persistence of mind coming again and again and again and again and again.

And I don't know, is it maybe... maybe death will, you know, reveal it.

NLook, death cannot reveal anything. Well, maybe the final few moments might be quite revealing, but after death you're back to what you were before you were born.

There's no thoughts. There's no feelings.

There's no experience. All of that is during life.

That's why I said there should be some urgency. I want to know in this moment. I want to know this very instant. What am I? Because I'm here. You're here.

Look, the mind can only be confused if we budge from that actual You to an image of you.

But in fact, when we're asking these Self-inquiry, we're practicing Self-inquiry, you're discarding all that. I don't need an image. I don't need an experience. You don't need it. You're here as You are.

You want to know yourself as you are. Not through a reflection, not through an intermediate, not through the mind.

And to that, all that needs to happen is mind surrenders: no me. And you can stop there, or it can point you back and say here you are, you're here.

In the silence there just... no counterargument. There's no second candidate. You know, there's no second candidate in that moment.

QSo it's just a continual returning to that again and again and again and again until the mind finally surrenders.

NSo well, to get there your mind has already surrendered, but then to expect the mind to comprehend that, we drop that, and instead You are convinced of what You are, not the mind.

Because the mind was saying things about You which were wrong.

Once You know what You are, you're not relying on that. You don't need the crutches anymore. You don't... you stand, you take your own stand.

Yeah, I know. Now I know. I was blind, but now I see. You know that song.

QYeah.

NYeah, I know.

I was blind, but now I see. Amazing Grace. It's everywhere. It's all pointing back to what You are.

QSo then boredom is finished, and that sense of like pointlessness is gone, because you just remain in You.

NWell no, because you see life can be pointless at times. It sometimes feels very pointless, like why do I have to do this tax form and blah blah blah?

But you do that, that's life.

Yeah, that's still states of mind. That's fine. But as you're doing that again, that's just states of mind.

QMhm. Thanks, Nabeel.

NThank you.

All right, let's end it for today. Thank you all for staying over time.

QThank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Much gratitude. Much gratitude.