The process that assumes it's you | Awareness vs. selfing (Live Q&A)

NLet's start by taking a little step back. Let's look at what is life anyway. What... what has actually happened which we call life? So, if you consider...

If you consider what's going on, there's a process taking place and at some point it starts to produce experiences. And that's the point you come to know of the process. The process had actually been going on for much longer. The first time you found out about it... "Oh, there's some experience!"

Whatever that was. But before that the body had been gestating. It was an egg in your mother's womb when she was born. And then you... you can trace that whole unbroken chain.

If you look at science it's the same process. It's branching and at some point it starts to produce experience. That's the first you come to know of it. And so the process is not just something in the head.

It's all of the seeing, the sensing, the hearing, the thinking, the feeling — all of that's going on. And you don't identify with it — you haven't done that — until at some point there's a subprocess which starts. At somewhere... and around that time is when your first memories start to form. That's the subprocess starting.

And that subprocess is what in the last conversation, towards the end, I was calling "selfing". There's no self, but there's a process of selfing. And initially, you get given a name, you get told you're a boy or a girl, you're born here, this is your religion, and all that. And now the selfing process is starting to build this image of supposedly what you are.

This is all taking place in that process. And over time... Initially it's very important. This process is central to why human intelligence is so much superior to anything else we know of.

It allows you to learn. It allows ways to find new relationships, to imagine new things. But eventually it becomes a burden because it's taking over the mind. It's like a runaway process.

If all the time you're thinking about this self-image — what's about to happen, relationships in the world, life and goals, and all that — now this subprocess has taken over. It's like a usurper. Taken over the throne, like "I'm the Lord here. All this is for me." But then, in the process, if the question comes up, "What exactly am I?"

Now the sham is starting to get revealed. Because if you look in the process, there's no possibility of finding a self there. Because there was never a you in the process. Your first point of contact was when the process starts to produce experience.

And now all you have access to is the experience. And what all these inquiries, these meditation practices are revealing, is that there is no actual thing you could call a self in all of this. So, all of you have seen that... You are seeing the selfing process, which is that when I look for the self all I find is thinking, feelings. There's no actual "me" in there.

But then you take that final step. What is my relationship to this process? The only point of contact was when it started to produce the experiences. And that's where you'll find the true identity.

What am I? Because at that point, if that experience appears to something else which is not you, well then this is not you. Like that — that's just absurd. The experience appears to you. So you are critical.

You are that point where the process is more than nothing. It becomes something. So, you are that aware factor, the Awareness due to which anything can come up, due to which life can begin. And if you look at it this way, you were never born! The process began, experiences came up. But was anything created?

If you look within the experiences, nothing is being born. There's no self entity. That's all the path of no-self is saying. There's no self entity. There's no conscious thing in any of this. And that's what it's pointing out.

If you look at experience as a whole, life as a whole, there's no self. And then you look at the other traditions, Advaita Vedanta and so on, saying all there is is the Self. Because when the process appears, who does it appear to? That's not in that, in anything that follows.

And you'll never find that Self there, but clearly you exist — You Are. So that is the discerning factor. You are moving away from the selfing process, which is a subprocess going on saying this is the image, this is what you are — you're pulling back and now, there's no such self, but then here You are! All right, let's go into a conversation.

Who would like to begin? Yes, Neil.

QGood morning everyone.

NGood morning. All right. Good morning.

QThe thing that I find with what you're saying is that I get the Awareness of being and I get it's obviously that that is me, that is fundamentally me. And I guess the more I continue down this path or whatever you want to call it, this understanding that is very, very real to me.

But as you're talking about the usurper, the person, the personality — as much as I understand it, I am that thing — there's still a residual thing that I carry around that still believes it's that person. And it's that personality, that character that I've built up over all my life. And that, like I say, there's the understanding. Absolutely. It's there. You know, it's with the help of your videos and other stuff that I've read and other things that I've done — I know that's me. I know that's true me. That's the true I. But there's still — there's always like a he won't go away. The guy I grew up with, the personality that I was, still follows me around. He won't go away. And maybe I shouldn't want him to go away totally. But it's almost like — is there a point that you get to where it's just like, no, that's me, that's the end of it, that's I'm totally that, that's me?

NYeah. So I mean, what you're talking about is just that the subprocess — we're calling it the selfing process — is still going on. And that will, for most cases, continue to go on. There's very rare occasions in human history that you can remain functional and that process has stopped. Okay? It stops even if it jitters, and it stops for a few fraction — I don't know, about less than a second — you've got the answer, done, finished. And then the process, if it continues, it's not a problem, because you know that is not you. It's just thinking — ways of thinking, ways of acting in the world — which is you experiencing the process.

You're experiencing the process in it. There is an identifier required for this body, its relationships and so on. We don't want to cut that. That's not required. And so what? But you know what you are. So you can have synonyms and we never get confused, as long as the sentence makes sense. We know what the word means. So "I" can mean the actual I, or it can be used flippantly by the thinking process — but you know, as soon as it's used in that way, that's not you. So the confusion is still within that process. The selfing process is trying to overreach. It's trying to say, okay, maybe I should rewrite my code and think differently and so on — but that's not the point, because you are — you have always been there from the first moment, and you will witness that last moment for this process to end or branch off and so on. And you have not changed. It's not possible for what is not part of the process to change. And all these thoughts of what might happen and there might be more clarity and so on — it's still the sparks in that process which is what you're experiencing.

Okay.

QOkay. Thank you. But when you listen to all this, that's also starting off these processes and they're clearing up the house. And finally it's very clear when there's a thought about me and this I need to do or whatnot — it's just a way of thinking, a way of the brain processing what needs to happen and so on, but you remain as the Awareness.

I was listening to one of your videos on the Ashtavakra one, and this is: your duty, your function is to only be aware — which I thought was just — that's a statement, that's an amazing statement in itself. You look at it in the universe — that's it. And would you — do you see it that way too, Nabeel? Do you see it as: that's all I need to do, just be aware, be what I am?

NYes. It's not even you need to do it. It's like you look at anything even in the world — electrons are electrons. You cannot take off the negative charge and say that's still an electron. Clouds are clouds. If it's not a cloud it's not a cloud. And you are Awareness. So you cannot stop being aware or be more aware or be less aware or be something else. Everything even in the world we experience has a quality which is inseparable from that thing. The sky is not the sky if you take out certain quality — that is the sky. And you are you. It's as simple as that. In the end it's just that is your quality. You are aware and that is your duty and you cannot do it any better or worse. Whenever an experience takes place it is rendered in perfection, reflecting whatever the process is taking place. You and I have to wear glasses. That's not a deficiency of Awareness. It is reflecting the process going on in this body. There's an issue with the eyes and then that is reflected in the experience. But the Awareness is always rendering the experience perfectly. Consuming zero energy. All the energy is quantifiable. It's taking place in the body and all that. But Awareness does not use any additional energy. It's just completely out of context — that it's undeniable and undeniably you.

QSo it's just a case really of me just — I think the word surrender is often used in these circles, or that you become — that you are surrendered —

NWho do you think would surrender in that case? Who would surrender, or what would surrender? It would be the subprocess — that selfing process has to surrender. It can still do its job. Its job is to still do the selfing, but it acknowledges who the Lord is. And that's not me.

QIt's not the egotistical me. That one surrenders. But then it's accepting that you are that Awareness and you are that being. And that in itself is the art. It seems to me that's the answer — that you just have to keep saying yes to. It's just yes, yes, yes. It is. It is. It is. It is. There's no conflict between the old personality and the real you. It's just that case of — just keep... There it is.

NYeah. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Sakina, you have your hand up. I can't hear you yet.

QSorry.

NSo yeah, go ahead.

QAt this point when the understanding comes through, selfing continues always in life because it's a part of functioning of this body-mind. But the little self, the me — is it gone, or does it still continue to identify with the body-mind?

NSo there never was a me. For there to be an actual me in that process we just talked about, there would have to be some entity that was created.

Even if it's a mini-me, you need something to get born. It needs to be able to think. It needs to be able to act. But that never happened. All that happened was experience started. In the experience, there was this complex interconnected thinking belief system. But when you look at it that way, you can't even call it me. It's not an entity. It's not a mini version of you. It's just a process. It's like — I can't call my circulatory system in this body something like an entity. It's just a system. A nervous system is working. So it's just the process continues. So what happens to the process can differ. There are extreme cases — like let's say if you take Sri Ramana Maharshi, it seems like the process completely stopped for a significant period of time. That's when he was lying in a cave catatonic and his body was withering away, and only because a devotee — before he became famous or anything, because in India they have the tradition of these kind of sages — someone took care of him. And that's how he survived. And then at some kind of level the selfing process has to return for him to wake up from that catatonic state. His mind may be very quiet and he is perfectly clear on what the Self is. But now there is some level of thought, some level of acting in the world going on. And that's what I call — it's part of the process. It is required for higher thought, for speech — otherwise you can't utter a word. And so there are extreme cases, but that is not the goal. And that case is only there for us as that case itself becomes the pointer to make you look at this life, whatever may be happening in it.

QMhm. So the expectation shouldn't be to just kill off that selfing process.

NRight. We found there's nothing to kill. There is no such thing as a me. There's no such thing as a conscious entity. Nothing was ever born.

QExactly. So from the very beginning there has been no separation. There is no separation. There is only just what is. No separation is possible because nothing gets born.

NYeah. All the process can ever do is create experience, but it cannot create Consciousness — as in it cannot create a conscious entity. And so you cannot have many people in a world suffering in their own little lives and then seeking out salvation and all that. That whole concept falls apart, because that was the subprocess. The selfing process had created this image and then the question was still there: who was born? What will happen when I end? And it was then looking up without understanding what was there — so intimate — that is the Self, that is Awareness.

But because of all the dualities which were created in that process, there was almost a physical barrier put up between life and before life and afterlife, sentience and insentience, Awareness, Consciousness, unconsciousness, and existence and nonexistence. And that's why most of the work we do is picking apart those dualities, because those are how the selfing process keeps remaining confused. When you see there has never been any separation, what used to be void and death and all that — now it's all, oh no, that is the Self, that is who I am. And the selfing process which maybe you used to look up to God or Reality, higher power — now it knows, now it's as intimate as [unclear].

QYes. Yes. Thank you.

NThank you. Now — you're just following up on this.

QSo it seems like the relationship between the I and the subprocess is — I mean the way the I, like Ramana Maharshi coming back, waking up — I think that is it like — is it the desire, specifically the love, that makes Awareness, for lack of a better word, give attention to the subprocess? And that subprocess is nice. I mean you come back because of desire or love specifically to that. I mean in the case of Ramana Maharshi, let's say, but generally also — otherwise if you don't give it attention you don't have a desire — but it's still... how is the subprocess... you see what I'm trying to say? Like what is it that — the relationship between the two? I mean there's no two, it's just — you still come back to the selfing as you're saying. What causes that pure Awareness, let's say, to continue that process — is desire?

NNo, it's not desire. So Awareness — so first of all the relationship is: what there is, the fundamental basis for experience, that is Awareness. But Awareness never says no to anything. Awareness is — whatever the process meets the criteria for an experience to rise, that experience will arise. Something in the process might say no — oh, I don't want to feel this pain — that's part of the process. But Awareness does not say no — this experience is too bad, let's not turn it into experience. There's no such entity that would be the mini-me. That me does not exist. I have no choice and nobody is trying to make a choice. The thing that tries to make a choice comes later — that's in the process.

That is not — that's the thinking —

QYeah.

NAnyway, so when the process begins, it is as physics describes it and so on — like that's the best model of the world to me, to explain true laws of nature. It's not true intention that things happen. And when the teachings around desire — we can touch on them — but that's meant for the process to figure things out and to stop wasting energy going around in circles. But Awareness does not desire. Awareness does not have any thoughts. And that's why the subprocess can get so confusing — there's no counter voice saying, "Oh, you are not me." It is in the process that the voice might start to say, "Oh, this is not me." And it's still all going on in process. But Awareness is silence. There's no thoughts, no experience, nothing until a process produces something. And then there's no one to say, "No, I don't want this process to produce this." So who is it that has desire? The desire is within — because there's a self-image that is fueling certain kinds of thinking. So it's all happening as part of the process. Those teachings are trying to pick apart what's wrong with the subprocess, because as long as there's a self-image of me in the world, then there's desire. I want to have something for myself or my family and so on.

QAnd that is — sorry — it's almost like the subprocess is almost like it is aware. It has these qualities that you — I mean that's the part that gets stuck. Like if Awareness is not —

NYeah, you're right. I mean on one hand Awareness is like — you can't have desire, because the moment you talk about that it becomes duality. But who is it that has desire — like if a subprocess has desire it's almost like it's conscious?

No. So desire is the experience of something that goes on in that process. Who owns the desire? Nobody does. But because of that self-image certain kind of thinking happens. Even the thinking is experience. That's not what actually is happening.

QYeah.

NWhat's happening is more complicated than the final thought that appears.

It's like if you think of multiple levels in a network, you only experience the top level and there's lots of computation going on, and at the end the thing that you experience we call it thought. That's the experience — a thought. But desire is an experience which has gone through lots of those chains through that network, and there's experience we call it desire, because you know the feeling — the feeling of desire is urge: for me, I need this. And what's happening is in these teachings, because the one who has seen it — they're not talking to a person. Yeah — you're either talking to the Awareness itself — you're pointing to the Awareness. Wake up. This is what you are. And because who is aware of the thoughts? Who is listening? That is Awareness. You can do that. There is a way to transmit right back to the source. The other is we're pruning the process. We're cutting, snipping little bits of the process, cutting, redefining concepts, cutting apart the dualities, and then the process sorts itself out. So those are the two angles. But all those attacks on desire are not for someone to stop desiring, because that's not possible.

Like any — we've all — we probably all have some kind of addiction and some of us might have serious addictions. And as you have that, from the outside all the advice seems just absurd. There's no one who can suddenly stop being addicted. Until you have addiction, you know how — who's going to stop and how? Something significant — some significant change somehow has to take place in the physical apparatus.

QYeah.

NOr there might be a new desire which destroys the old desire. But it's not of somebody who can [apply] intention and willpower. Those are things which are based on the idea of individual selves who have agency who can do this and that.

All right, we might circle back. We'll let JS speak now.

QSorry. Yeah. Sorry. I hope you can hear me. First of all, thank you so so much. Thank you for the silence I've experienced since the last time we spoke. And I just wanted to ask what was your process? What process were you going through internally before you came to your realization, that moment? As I mentioned — I think you remember I mentioned — I had this spiritual experience, but at the time my process — I didn't take any substances, I didn't even know about enlightenment — I was just obsessed with the mantra every single second that I had Awareness. I would just chant this mantra, refusing to entertain any thoughts, and then I had the experience. But now I find I can't sustain that. But what is happening now is I am becoming aware even of Awareness.

And now the psychological mind is losing its power. And especially since our last meeting and talking to you — I think I left a comment — when you look back you realize it's just all the mind. You're just tangled up in it. But I'm just curious to know your process because I'm very methodical. So maybe I can just copy your — copy and paste.

NThat's the problem. There's no copy and paste option. There's no formula. There's no formula. See — when whatever realization you have at that point, then you look and the whole of your life led up to that realization.

QYes.

NEverything bad that happened — it all helped get you to that cliff and then nudge you over.

QYes. And even now I see the psychological mind is actually helping me — like without it I feel I go below thoughts, and sometimes I do go below thoughts, and then when it bites I become aware again and then start inquiring. But I wonder if it's all the mind again.

NI mean the one thing that was the core of it, which is an open secret, is Self-inquiry. That's the only thing. And whatever experiences or whatever insights you have — that depends, because it's just one point being pointed out: you are not in the process, you are prior to it. And everything — whatever points you back to it — that's helpful. And the one thing that does root you in that is Self-inquiry, because we get the subprocess itself — now at least a portion of it — we're going to dedicate it to looking back. Try to look back. And when it does that, it'll just wind itself up.

QYes.

NAnd you are always there. You're always aware. You're always present. As that sinks in — that you are not in the world, you're not a body, you're not this and that — what's left is quite clear. My own process is a long story and this and that. So we don't want to waste the whole hour on that. And I have — you probably listen to it in the videos. There's a few critical points, but that's again looking at it maybe the wrong way. Because everything led up to that point — every single point in this life — and was it important? What if that didn't happen in this life? And like the normal way — or this life — like you realize something and later on you get dementia and you're old and you forget everything. What has changed? It's just the story of one life. And the realization, like I said before — the scope is not — the scope is global. It has nothing to do with this one life.

QJust thank you so much. I just want to share something interesting. I wanted to join the last call. It was at 3 my time, but I had to be up at 5. So I said I won't put the alarm, but if I wake up at 2:30 it'll be a sign. I woke up at 2:37 in the morning, but then my mind started — I just want to expose this as well — saying that you'll get too addicted to the energy and then you won't be able to do it yourself. You're hitchhiking on his energy. But because my mind had been so silent ever since the other call, and every time it came up I was able to see it and it went down. But then they said, "No, you can do this by yourself. You don't need anyone because you did it before." So I just want to expose that as well, because then I went back to sleep. I woke up again at 3 and then my mind said the same thing. No, no, you don't need any of this. You're fine. You can do this. Plus, you'll get addicted to the energy and then that'll be another thing that you'll have to undo. So I wonder if that's just the mind or is there real reality in it?

NSo I mean those thoughts are — well they are wise. Who — what is going to lay out the path for you? It is the mind. In the process — that's what I mean when you realize your whole life, all the missteps, all the bad stuff, all the things you thought you did wrong — they lead up to the realization. Who are you going to blame? That was the story being laid out in this life. Like you go to a concert — if you know the composer, you go very confidently. You'll love it. You know it. Who is writing the script here? There's no God to hate. There's no me that exists. So you have to trust the script. It's writing itself. It's amazing. Let's enjoy it. And what the script was saying is correct.

You don't need to depend on me. And whatever energy you feel is coming from here is actually the energy of the mind. It is experience. You look up to someone — you know, people start screaming if it's Michael Jackson or whatever. That's just the fan power — in the spiritual circle, it goes to the guru.

QYes.

NBut you're right. It's all about turning inwards, not depending on anything.

QOkay. Thank you so much.

NThank you. Thank you. All right. Brad.

QNamaste Nabeel. Am I audible?

NYes, you are.

QHello everyone. So this is the first time I'm joining one of your groups. From the outset, I just want to say I've seen all your videos. I think they're absolutely wonderful.

NThank you.

QI don't really have any questions, but I just wanted to make some small observations. I couldn't agree with you more, Nabeel. This whole aspect of having this concept of a subprocess — straight away that subprocess is appearing to what is noticing that subprocess, that gets it, that doesn't get it. Like I think you beautifully mentioned in one of your videos — like clouds in the sky — that subprocess is no different to clouds in the sky, so it's nothing to be scared of.

The fact that you are experiencing the subprocess malfunctioning in any particular way shows — it proves — that you are Awareness. Another example is a metaphor of looking in a mirror. When you look in a mirror, you see your face. But that face is just a reflection of who you are. You as the original face are before the image of your own face. Whether you like your face or you don't like your face, you are actually not that face. What that means is that face is nothing but you. But you are not that face. You are prior to that face.

Finally, I just wanted to mention about what you said earlier, excuse me, about no separation. 100 million percent no separation. If there is no separation, why do we feel separated? A way to answer this question is to bring in the concept of ignorance. If there is no separation but we feel it, it must be because I'm ignorant of it. But what that subtly implies is that there never was separation. I'm not sure whether that subtle point has come in. There never was a separation. It's just that I didn't know it. So what does that mean for me? That means actually everything what my mind is telling me, what's going around me, is perfectly okay. How do I know it's perfectly okay? Because I choicelessly experience it. And in deep sleep, I'm fast asleep. It's a wonderful experience without any process or subprocess or notions of duality. I'm totally fine.

I just wanted to say that I set my alarm clock here in London. These meetings start at 6:00. I normally wake up at 5. I thought I set my alarm clock for 5, but I hadn't. I made a mistake. But just like the previous speaker, somehow at 5:00 a.m. I was up. So I'm glad to be here. So the process — that subprocess — is nothing to be scoffed at or rejected. It does work and it's a source of extreme bliss. That notion of bliss, of enjoyment, is precisely why in our own ignorance we desire these experiences from the subprocess — from a basis of ignorance we desire. I just wanted to add those thoughts. Thank you.

NYeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. The clouds one is good. It's just like clouds.

QYep. Nobody hates clouds. Nobody expects, asks more of them. They look like they look. Sometimes the day they change, go away. I think the answer is in your statement — nobody. Nobody. And it's really interesting. I always found it amusing when in natural language we say words like "my mind." Straight away that talks about the mind in the third person. Who is that that is saying that the mind is possessed? Who is that possessor? That possess. Every time we say, "Oh, my mind was all over the place" — straight away you're indicating you're not that. Language is really instructive. If you just notice the way one is speaking or the words which are heard, you actually see that there is no separation at all. There is only that level of one of Awareness — of what's being said, what's being observed, what's being enjoyed, what's being learned, what's experienced choicelessly.

NYeah. I mean one thing that Self-inquiry does for those who really get obsessed with it is — when the thought "my mind" comes, immediately there's a counter thought: who? And just that — or it might not even be a word — but in that split second it's exposed: oh, just a thought, not my mind. Like that was — whose mind? And again you go back to what you have understood. The realization is once, and then like in one of the calls we talked about washing your bowls. We're cleaning up. This is that one realization is cleaning up.

QI really like the washing bowls. I've never heard about that particular Zen koan. I did post on your YouTube channel. I have a slightly different interpretation of washing bowl — that the bowl is a teaching, and eventually the master says wash your bowl out. That means to drop everything including what you feel you've learned or not learned. Drop everything. Make your bowl empty and make it empty of Emptiness. Drop everything, so to speak.

NThank you. All right, let's head to Amit.

QHi, can you hear me?

NYep.

QFirst of all, I want to deeply thank you for helping the One remember itself and being this helpful for so many people. I am going to try and challenge the One, and I wrote down my thoughts yesterday to have it a little bit more organized. So let me just read it. I don't know if you will be able to see me at the same time, but I will read it.

So, experience is change. When there is no change, there is no experience. Change requires the illusion of time. Consciousness is what allows any experience or no experience, which means it has to create the illusion of time for it to have any experience. Hence any experience is always an illusion. Obviously when anything is an illusion there is then no difference between real and fake. In state of nonduality the illusion of time dissolves. Hence there is no experience whatsoever. There isn't even nonduality in nonduality or a watcher or experiencer. Once feeling of time is back, hence there is an experience. The experience can be seen as nothingness for eternity — being nothing, having any experience — or everythingness — being everything the whole time for eternity — or somehow both at the same time.

Well, my question is, how can we ever truly know that it ends there? Maybe that's the deepest we can get in our Reality and maybe not. But I mean, first of all, it doesn't help whatsoever and there is no need for it, but it can very much just be a dream in a dream and dream going up endlessly with or without a place you can call out of the dream. And secondly, can we ever truly know ourselves the dreamer if when there is no experience there is only nothingness and everythingness — or can we only know the dream, although obviously the dreamer is the dream? Obviously you can just point me to who is the one asking the question and well into the I am, and in that state of nonduality all concept, all questions, places to go to, questioner and everything just dissolves. But the thing is when you really are yourself, you have no experience whatsoever. So how can you know anything about yourself experientially besides states of knowing yourself as the dream? Thank you.

NSure. So yes, logically it sounds correct. However, Reality is real — is what is most real. There is no point where Reality would be absent. The dream is a superimposition.

QYeah.

NEven if you're in a dream and a dream and a dream — what is real is there to find out. How would you find out the various ways?

One is — if we approach it from the angle you've set up — you go to that nothingness. All right — whatever the means, we've discussed it a few times now — shut down, watch the process start up. So whatever a dream appears, a dream in the dream appears — whatever — if you shut it down and then start up you can watch the simulation appear as it appears.

You don't look at the simulation. The question of Self-inquiry arises. What am I at this point? When the whole simulation has disappeared, it's just starting up now. What am I at that point?

QBut there is no one at the moment. There is no simulation. There is no one to ask it.

NYeah. No. No. There's — the One is there, but there's nothing — the question is not there, the experience nothing — who would ask a question? But when the simulation starts — this is I'm talking from what happened — there's records of cessation and so on — so I'm talking about cessation. There's two ways I approached it. One is while approaching, coming out from deep sleep. The other one was in meditation. What happens is you've reached that point where yeah, there's nothing — no time, no me, no nothing, nothing. But then it starts back. And when it starts back, because the mind has been trained to continuously inquire, the first thing it does as the process starts is it inquires: what am I at this point? And then it's pretty clear that I did not exist — that I is destroyed — that I is now booting up. So it did not exist. But what then is I is immediately clear. And then that I is the real — the Reality which must be there at any level of the dream. If you are 10 dreams down like Inception, doesn't matter, because that I is purely aware. That is the only quality. And at this point there's no difference between being aware and being not aware. It's — and being something and nothing. It has all equalized. The only difference is — I think as in what you were reading out — that everything and something and experience and nothing — it's all now shown how they are identical. The only difference is we're tweaking certain things. Oh, now there's light. Oh, now this tickling feeling and whatever. But all those are just pulling little bits of what was already there which is just Awareness — the infinite potential to create any kind of experience.

QAnd that is right. So I get what you're saying. I definitely agree with it that what the I is is that — using your word Awareness — that allows any experience or no experience. But the problem is — it's not a problem. There is no problem. Once you observe yourself as nothing else but that Awareness — once there is nothing else but that Awareness — since there is no duality to experience the Awareness, you can't really know the Awareness but be —

NSo you're flipping the "you" there. That you that is not the Awareness — like the person, the me, Nabeel — that one was just — that got put in its place. That is not the thing that is aware. You're realizing what is aware is the ultimate Reality itself is aware — not a person or a thing.

QOh, so the question of am I real? Is this real? That still applies to the dream character. But there's no question that Reality exists, for there to be simulation. The question is more on the level of: can Awareness know itself besides experience?

NAll of this is Awareness knowing itself. Who else is knowing all this? Is it a person is knowing all this and then Awareness is not aware? No. Awareness is aware of all this and all this is Awareness. So that statement itself is again a bit confused, because who else is aware? That's why all of this is the manifestation of Reality. Reality has taken shape. Emptiness is form and form is Emptiness — and who is aware of the forms except for Emptiness?

Right now, one thing I want to point out though is look — there's no question that there is a Reality. For even for a dream or simulation to appear, there has to be Reality.

QAn experience.

NNo, not experience. Just the base Reality needs to be there for anything else to be possible to exist — for a dream to appear. How would a dream appear if there's just absolute nothing and no real — like what can we even talk about there being no Reality?

We can't talk about it. But it's absurd, isn't it?

QBut as I see it and as I experience it, there is absolutely no difference between no Reality, nothing, nothingness and everythingness. Both are — you can call it zero and one — but both are nonduality, one and the same.

NYes. And in that insight of nonduality, what you're finding out is that I as a person, as me, as whatever I thought of as I, is not the thing that is aware — that was just a collection of phenomena. And what is aware is that most fundamental base Reality. Once — so that just kind of kills off the question. I just say it kills it off. There's no question of unreality or Reality. Not knowing Reality. Going down to nonduality would dissolve all questions whatsoever. That's that.

QSure. For sure. But how could you be certain there is a Reality when you're speaking [unclear]? When you're speaking like — I don't get it. Maybe I'm missing you.

NSo if there was — what do you mean? How can there be doubt that there is a Reality? Because there's this experience right now, isn't it? Even if it's a dream, there is — the dream exists.

QDoes it have to exist somewhere?

NIt's not about somewhere. The where can be an illusion, but Reality must be the basis for the illusion — must be there.

QWell, obviously if everything is an illusion, then everything is real because there is no distinction between real and illusion when everything is one thing. But no matter what that can come later —

NBut what I'm trying to point out is even for an illusion to be possible, you need something more fundamental that is more real to be there first. It's not possible to have an illusion — like you cannot have a dream. Let's take a human dream. You cannot have a dream without a human brain. Let's say you cannot have a mirror illusion without the mirror. You cannot have experience without something more fundamental. So the question is what is real — but not that is there a Reality — because that answers itself, because as soon as there's experience, whatever that — whether it's an illusion or not — it has proven that there is Reality. So what is real? I would definitely say Awareness is real. That's the only thing that is real.

QBut what is — is there a Reality? That's one question I think you can doubt.

NAll right, we're using it differently then.

That's fine.

When you say Awareness is definitely real, then that is your Reality. That is your Reality. That is real.

QYes. Right. I guess I understand you and we are pointing at the same thing.

NYeah, we were just saying there's a fundamental point which cannot be denied. As soon as there's experience, it's proven. You don't need to think. You don't need to have higher thought. It has been proven whether you think about it or not. The proof is in the moment.

QRight. I still — I do get your answer, but I still feel like that Awareness, since it is all there is, creates that illusion to know itself as duality, but it still is just one nonduality and it can never know itself as itself alone and not as —

NThat's still thinking of — that's diverged quite — that's gone into thinking of Awareness as having thoughts or intentions, wanting to know itself or not. Awareness is simultaneously containing all of the illusions, all dream worlds, all minds at the same time. Any dream, a dream within a dream — all of that is within Awareness. So there's no question of Awareness knowing itself in a —

Yeah, that's not Awareness. That's thinking of a global mind aware of all the experience at the same time, which is not what Awareness is. Because you've got two — one where you're speaking of is quite close to truth. One is there's still a bit of that you're thinking of as like a mind, but it's not a mind. This doesn't have intentions. It's not —

QYeah. Right. Right. Yeah. So, and every experience in that sense is Awareness knowing Awareness, because as you said, there's nothing else.

NYeah. But it's not knowing in the sense of —

QEverything there is. Yeah. Yeah. Which is everything there is. There is only Awareness. Knowing Awareness, but not knowing in the sense that a human being wants to know the truth. It's not knowing in that sense.

NRight. Right. Only once a duality is back there is that question obviously.

QYeah. Yeah. Fair enough.

Then the small process — the subprocess — wants to know the higher Reality and that is just an impossible task. It's not going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it.

N[unclear], you're on mute. You're on mute.

QYeah, I think. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi everyone. So, continue on that same Amit — the previous question. I think it could be something to do with the framework. Currently we are expecting everything as an objective experience. This may be — the Awareness is — we are having it's a new framework of we are taking it as a subjectivity. There is no objectivity. So like now if a color is coming on — we just — a new color appeared. When that pattern is — when we are naming it as red it becomes the objective, or we make that abstraction where we make that partition subject and object. But when a new color comes, so we just — it just knows as me or inside me, but there is no definition or no abstraction on that. Means — is it — I mean the subjective experience of it —

NDidn't quite get the question actually.

QBut no — I mean from the previous question what he was asking, Amit — so I mean we tend to see everything in an objective way, but this is a different realm completely because we are going to know everything as subjective only. So in that, for example, a red color appears. Now normally — color appears. It's a pattern. It's a new pattern. So now we have given a definition for it as red. So now when if a new color comes into the appearance — if it gets appeared — we just okay, we are aware of a new pattern. But when we go to name it we make the partition of duality. Is that correct? When we give a label for it — we can stay on that experience as yeah it's a new color. I mean it's the same moment really — there is no two different moments we experience — but when we are trying to define it we make the duality. Until that we are just — it's just known. Every — the initial known stage — is that correct?

NIt's true to an extent. If there's a lot of conceptual overlay that's creating all kinds of dualities — and as you start to take away the overlay then you can say oh there's only seeing, there's only hearing, and then you go — or there's only experience and there's only Consciousness. So you're going back from the concepts. But there still remains — it's not only that — there's still deeper dualities like Consciousness and unconsciousness, existence and nonexistence. So it's a good first step like when we start to follow these traditions that talk about okay don't refer to the thinking mind and conceptual mind and so on — but the job is still not done so it goes a bit deeper still. But yes it is.

You've got some kids listening to all this crazy stuff — that's good. So it is true that the thinking mind or the subprocess — the selfing process — is trying to cast everything into objects, concepts it knows of. But in Reality everything is subjective and what we found is the base Reality is just the basis of subjectivity. It's like pure subjectivity and you can never get to actual real object.

There's only probability distributions and so on.

QRight. So yeah. So all these days whatever the experience we have had is like objectively we see everything. So this is completely a new way of seeing the things as subjectively. Yeah. So don't expect to be the same way it is how it was before.

NYeah. So one thing though is don't expect that the labeling has to stop — the thinking has to completely pause. What happens is that that could still be going on but you know what is the fundamental essence — what I'll call the essence of mind. Like you've understood now we can name it all kinds of things. Sure you can make all kinds of distinctions but it remains that it is still Awareness. It's just we talking about different aspects, different dimensions and so on. And then there's the aspect of surrender. When that subprocess now has also reckoned with the realization that I am not the thing that's conscious — because it assumed it was — the thought process had assumed it was the thing that's conscious. It's not. It's just a thought process. And then there is that surrender. Now it can ask itself, do I even know what red is? Because that's a bunch of neurons which have no idea what red is. They're just language. It's just the thinking part of the brain. There's another part which knows what red is. And the surrender is in realizing — the voice comes up: oh, I'm just a thought. I'm just — this is just a thought. And it's not "this is just a thought." I who thought I was speaking am just a thought. And then the surrender is to the one who is experiencing, who knows what red is and who knows this thought — that is the Awareness. And that is why I cannot say Awareness does not know itself, because each life is that Awareness knowing Awareness. Who else has the power to understand the thought? The thoughts don't know themselves. They don't know red.

QYeah. Known it is, but it's not the label how we interpret, read it. Now we have given a meaning for it.

So we have given a meaning like this with the definitions for the patterns.

NSo the meaning is still only meaningful when it appears in Awareness — when it's understood by the Awareness. If it's just a word it has no inherent meaning. There's an experience to go with it. When I say rose, you can talk about rose. You know what a rose is. The experience is there and the word is matched to it. But who hears the word and knows that experience and knows the memory? That is you. That is the actual real you. And that is the one who noticed the experience begin — which is what the talk we began with. What is life? Life is that a process started to produce experiences. And you are the one who began to know those experiences. And that is what is called Awareness. And to the conceptual thinking mind, that is the same as nothing because it doesn't have any properties. It's not colorful. It doesn't have sounds and thoughts and feelings. It's the basis of all that.

QThank you. Thank you.

NThat's good. All right. Any last comments or questions?

Yep. Jess, or is it Par — you wanted to go again? Oh. Oh, sorry. I think he just left his hand, but that's all right. You can go.

QYeah. I just wanted to ask — is it possible for all of us, everyone to have Self-realization if we earnestly seek it, or is it all predestined? And then I have something else as well to ask. Maybe I'll ask all together. And then as well — I'm sure you — maybe it's just me — but when I had the — I keep going through the experience — but when I had the experience, when I came back I could see clearly how people talk from their psychological mind, from their ego, and I was so excited to give them the good news — and then when nobody was hearing me. They just thought I was crazy. Then I went back to my own ego mind, my own psychological mind. But then since the last calls, the last few calls, and since I've been getting earnest again, even listening to myself sometimes feels uncomfortable. But the more I inquire, the more I'm communicating with people — I feel like I'm cheating them and I'm cheating myself because I see it's just two psychological minds, egos communicating — and then sometimes I feel like most of the things I say are just frivolous, unnecessary, because when I am in that place of silence is truly silence. There is nothing to say other than sometimes just cry because of so much beauty. So I wonder — and then when I get sucked into the psychological mind I think maybe it's not destined to happen in this lifetime for me. I don't like to scare myself. So I wonder is it possible for anyone who seeks.

NAll right. So it's a funny answer. Look, what you are is what you are and you are what you are. Who's going to realize? The selfing process can never realize the higher Reality?

Never. Impossible. It's not even conscious. But you who are conscious — to you it is being pointed out what you are. So it's not hard. It can — in fact it's already happening. Every experience is telling you what you are. It's not telling it in words. It's saying you're aware. That's what every experience — if we translate it into words — that's what it's telling you. You are aware. And all this talk is about the glory of Awareness. How fundamental it is. How it is not an object. It is not possessed by things.

So on the one hand you are Self-realized. Every experience has helped you realize you're aware. That is Self-knowledge. Being aware is Self-knowledge. It's not a word kind of knowledge. It's not thought-based knowledge. It is the most obvious self-evident knowledge that is Self-knowledge. On the other hand there's this thought process going on — the selfing process — and it wants to realize the Self. How can a thought process realize something that is beyond thought? That is the basis of thought. It's not going to happen. So that part we have to give up. And when you say you're talking to people and going into ego and so on — that is again referring to that wrong view of Awareness — that aware — the people and so on. There are processes interacting. Like I said there are some processes, subprocesses where the question arises what am I — and those are rare. And even among those when you try to communicate it's hard because the process comes with a lot of baggage that you got to prune.

But if you try to communicate to some process where there's just no interest in the question — there's a world in which it's built and it's interacting in that and so on. So there's only so much you can say. Yeah, there's no need to say, because the one who is aware of even the most tedious process or even the experience of an insect — who is that — who is it that is the Self? And even if there's no thought telling the Self that you are this and that — doesn't matter. Realization is just — even realization is pointless in a way. What did we realize? Who realized what? The Self was always — is always — the Self.

QThank you. Thank you.

NSorry. Was there a comment? I saw something in the chat.

Okay. All right. We might end there today, but thank you all for the interesting conversation. Yeah, hope we prune some branches there and we'll be seeing you again.

QThank you, Nabeel. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Neil. Thank you. Thank you so much, Nabeel. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.