What makes a thought "my" thought? | Nonduality Satsang [public version]

NSo, have you noticed in movies and books, it's always very clear who the villain is? It's quite obvious. But in life, the villains never realize they're the villains. So why is that? It takes a certain kind of self-reflection.

There's always an internal justification no matter what. But the way to see you are being the villain is only when you look at what was my thought as an object. It's not my thought. It's a thought. And you look at it as an object of observation. Then you can see what's wrong with it.

It's a certain kind of self-reflection. So someone took offense to my latest video and they posted this comment, which is actually quite airtight according to the normal view. They said, "My thoughts are my thoughts and your thoughts are your thoughts. You have no access to my thoughts." And that sets up a separation.

So when I say the Self is Awareness, this seems to contradict that — that your thoughts are only available to you. But then look at it. What makes a thought my thought? What makes an experience my experience? Because there will still be this idea that my experience is not accessible to anyone else, and so I am separate.

I am different. What makes an experience my experience? If you start to question that, you see that whatever thought arises, it is my experience. A certain thought is gone — no longer my experience.

So whatever arises, even if it's something completely new, some experience never experienced in this life, immediately as it arises, that's now part of my experience. It's just an all-encompassing category. Whatever is arising in the moment is categorized as my experience. But the "my" there is only saying that this experience is present.

It is present. Here. It's obvious. Experience of course cannot be in the second-hand or third-hand view. It's always the first-hand view. And what experience is, is a self-contained bubble.

It's like a bubble of space and time. Whatever appears in it — yes, that's the experience. If you look at it as "my experience," and "you" as something only to do with that bubble, then yes, it seems you are a separate self. And that's how most lives are lived out. But actually, that's just the nature of experience.

It's not my experience or my thoughts. It is an experience, and in the moment there is experience — that is it. It appears as the only experience. It's not possible for you to have two experiences at the same time.

Whatever it is, it'll be one experience. But that is the nature of experience. And then if you look at it that way, has it explained what you are? That question has just been put aside.

Because if you tie up your identity to whatever is happening in the bubble, then you seem to be some character in the bubble. But the question is: what am I? And if it's not my thought and not my experience — if you can see it that way — it's just a thought. It's just an experience. Then what are you?

Then what you are is very simple. It's not complicated. The complicated stuff is to identify with what happened in this stream of experience — the person and all their baggage and all their characteristics. That's complicated. But if it's not my experience, not my thoughts — it's just experience — then what you are is very obvious, very simple.

You are the aware factor. Whatever experience is arising, it doesn't matter. You are what is Aware. And to draw a boundary between you and me, we need that "my thought" and "my experience" concept, which seems iron-tight, but it isn't. It depends on whether you can look at it, examine it with that self-reflection.

All right, let's do Q&A.

QHi, Nabeel. Hi, everyone. So along the same lines — when you reflect, it's just a little bit of time to reflect inward, instead of allowing all the stuff that happens around you to get all of your attention. So it's easy to see that you're the knower of experience. You're the knower. Something that you know — that's your relationship to the experience. You're the knower of it. Perception, thought, feeling — you're the knower of it.

And then it feels like, okay, what is it that you know? What's the known? And it's all within the same field — what you call Awareness. So the knower and the known, you kind of get to a point of feeling like they're the same. It's all happening within the same field. And then from there you become the knowledge itself — or, said differently, Awareness itself. I was listening to one of your older videos — the one about taking the word "mind" and penetrating it, and the fact that everything happens in the mind: space, time, all of it. And then, what is this mind? From there things are starting to just make a lot of sense, intellectually and also as a feeling.

I've been kind of bouncing between ignorance and knowledge recently, for the reason you mentioned — because I have a personal connection to that. It's a test, but you contextualize things and stay with it. If you have any words of wisdom to handle these things that are really acute in terms of personal feeling and all that — other than just closing your ears and not looking — anything you can do in the moment, I'd appreciate it.

NSo it always goes back to seeing how you are not changing. You are very simple. You are neither big nor small. You are not this or that. You are what is Aware.

And whatever changes — that's just the experience. Sometimes it feels clear, the truth is obvious. Sometimes you're lost in life. But that is still just experience. Always return to: what am I? And the only way experience describes you is not through the specifics of what's going on in the experience, but just the presence of experience. That defines what you are. No matter what experience... While the experience is happening, you are the one that is Aware of the experience. But that emotion you feel — that's also an experience. The damn thing hurts, you can't deny that, but still you are Aware of it, you experience it. You just have to let it play out and find that opportunity to get back to what you said — that wisdom of, "Okay, it's just an experience."

Everything remains the same, but instead of taking it personally, instead of seeing it personally, you're seeing it in a more raw, as-it-is way. The emotion is still painful. It is painful because it is that kind of emotion. And it is not "my emotion," but it is your role as Awareness to be Aware of whatever arises. The nature of Awareness is that Awareness is unconditional — there's no picking and choosing what arises when. Whatever arises, you will be Aware of it. You did not choose it nor cause it, but your presence makes it possible. And what you were saying earlier about the knower and the known — that distinction is also not there. Because whatever arises, can it be completely apart from you who are Aware of it? If it was completely apart, how would you be Aware of it? It's not possible.

When two things are completely separate, there would be no bridge. The reason you're Aware of all this is that you're connected to it. But not just connected — you are the foundation of it. Even in science there are all these universal fields — gravity and electromagnetism and so on. And mostly there's nothing there until there's mass. Then you see, oh, there's an effect of gravity. The field was always there. There's some movement in the field, some object in the field, which causes you to then realize the field is there. In this case, you are the field — the non-local, aware factor.

And what I was saying earlier: my experience always feels like one experience, one local experience. That's because that's the nature of experience. Experience is always a localized bubble of what is happening — a space-time bubble, subjective and in the moment. So all those bubbles are existing in parallel. Each of them is a separate world, in a sense. It's like a self-contained world. And if you only observe the bubble, you will never find what you truly are, because you're still stuck in that subjective view — the dream view. But pull back and ask, "What am I?" And you are very simple, because you have only one quality — the quality of being Aware.

QThank you. It's good to see you're safe. Do you live in Iran?

NNo, I'm in California. But my wife's parents are there, and a lot of cousins and uncles, people I grew up with — all that. I hope they stop fighting soon.

QIt's funny, recently it's like you feel the pain of both sides. I mean, you kind of... like you said, your villain — you look at it and say, okay, if I put myself in this shoe, if I put myself in that shoe, it's like that.

NAnyway, let other people go ahead. Marina, you have your hand up.

QYes. Hi. Hi, everyone.

Just to link to what Nadir was saying about the war. I have this struggle because in my mind I always have this — probably wrong — interpretation of what I think sages have said, or teachers... I don't know. The world is not real, the body is not real. And right in this moment, when there are many people dying and there are bombs and wars and all kinds of horrible things, I really don't get it. Can you please really dive into it and help me to understand what they say about the world is not real, or whatever. If you get what I mean.

NI mean, there's no... it's not a denial of life, and that's never what the sage meant. It is to point out — because you're already far down the line, you have contemplated, you've looked at the wisdom teachings and so on. But if you've never done that, then the world to you is a physical place, an actual physical world, and you are a thing in it.

And that is the wrong view, because it is entirely subjective. It doesn't change that there's pain and suffering and all that — that has not been put aside. But what is being pointed out is that the world is not a physical Reality. You are not a thing in it. The world is entirely subjective. It's experiential. The experiences of course can be painful. But to first see that this is all experiential and not a physical Reality lets you then question: what is real? What is Reality, and what am I?

But if you never went that way, and you took the world to be a physical world — a physical universe in which you are a tiny little animal on this planet — then how would you ever dare to question what is Reality? And be able to see what you are, which is just so amazing and so absurd when you get to it. So it's not to deny suffering — that is the main question. In fact, what was the question Buddha wanted to answer? He wanted to understand the root cause of suffering, and what is the end of suffering. And after how many years have humans been on Earth? Actually, it's not that long, but we still act like apes. It's still the same.

Now, our spears have rocket fuel, but they look the same. They're spears. They're bigger, the blast and so on. It's still the same. Religion still dominates. To open the mind often requires a radical questioning of core beliefs, and one of them is that the world is a physical place and I'm a thing in it. To say that no, it's not — it's an illusion, it's maya, it's exactly like a dream world. And if you hear that, you will start to question: how can I differentiate this world from a dream world? And actually you see, oh, while I'm in a dream I can never tell... until suddenly the mind rebels within a dream. If you have an unpleasant dream, a really complicated dream — I was having one the other day — like problems you cannot solve, events which are not in your control, and the mind rebels and it says, no, I'm sleeping, this is not real.

There's a reaction that takes place, and suddenly all the problems are unimportant. Not in the way that, as long as the dream continues, the story will continue. But there is now a detachment from how you were tied into the whole storyline. And the detachment is both the ability to then walk in that world — like the Buddha did with his calm, clear mind — and try to pass on the dharma, instead of just sitting in bliss and saying who cares.

QI understand the detachment, but when you see people dying, it's a different sensation.

I understand that the world is not the ultimate truth — I understand that, and I can see that Awareness is the only basic ground in which everything appears and makes perceptions possible. But still, even though I'm not the perceptions, I get affected by those perceptions. I suffer seeing children dying and bombs being fired and everything. I do suffer. I cannot say honestly, "This is just an object in my Awareness." That's not what we think. It's the same, but it's not... I suffer because of all this. There is suffering.

NWho's suffering? Who is dying? There's a deeper way to look at Reality and what a person actually is, which is not denying the suffering but seeing it clearly.

QSo maybe I have a misunderstanding here, because I think I understand that when a body dies, Awareness is not touched by this death of the body. Awareness is the principle. So when a body dies, Awareness doesn't have the point of connection — there are no perceptions anymore.

It can sound weird even to myself, but if [unclear] dies... Awareness — I have no idea, there is no connection, there is no link. So what's the point if this body dissolves? The Awareness... there is no link. You see what I mean? It looks like Awareness goes... somewhere else. There is no more perception.

NSo don't think of Awareness in a secondary way. You are Aware. So when I say Awareness, I mean you. The connection to [unclear] is very intimate. Right now, whenever an experience appears, that is the whole world. So [unclear] is this whole world, and the connection to Awareness is that every aspect of this world you are Aware of.

And when death comes — if when death comes and you're not Aware of what you are — whatever the experience is of that death, which can be terrible and so on, yes, it is experienced very intimately, exactly as you're imagining in what you're talking about. Yes, that is the connection. I'm not... Reality explains everything as it is. There can be a terrible death, and that terrible death is experienced in complete detail. The question is only: who died? Who experienced it? That is the actual "I." What everyone means by "I." They are oblivious of what they mean. Who is oblivious? Only the thoughts. You are what is Aware. The Awareness.

In this whole life, you have experienced every moment perfectly, intimately, as if you are [unclear] — but [unclear] is this whole world. Because the world is not real means it's not a physical thing. It is this name that is given to you — not given to the body from the outside. Yes, sure. But from your firsthand view, every moment in this life, every aspect of this world, that is what this name belongs to. And you are the Awareness who perceives that. So when a world ends, yes, that world has ended. But Awareness, from the first point to the last, was the foundation of that world, experiencing every aspect of it. And all these worlds are going in parallel. Time and space exist only in that bubble.

QIt's seeing things at such a fundamentally, radically different view — in a way that everything is at the same time the same, and yet there is... I don't know what to say. Is it worth it?

NI just talk to people who are interested in talking about this. I'm not spreading a religion or anything. Is it even worth knowing this? Because nothing changes, really. But I think it is — the truth has value in itself. It's worth knowing the truth.

What's the point of life if you just go through it imagining you were in that dream as a character, and then dying as the character? You could do all that, and at the same time know what the truth is. There's a relief in it. And the relief is not denying the suffering of everybody that's dying, but seeing them as they are.

Okay. [laughter] Okay. Go back. Go back. Neil, hello.

QIt's funny. I've been watching quite a lot of your videos recently, but the one that's kind of grabbed me at the moment is, weirdly enough, self-inquiry — which I feel like I should have been doing, or engaged with, or that should have been more a part of my world a long time ago. But for some reason it didn't really... it kind of bounced off. It just seems to me like — well, it's interesting. We are talking about Awareness, and being Awareness, and that this process, if you like, is about removal, not gaining.

I completely agree with that. I completely see that. And I found that process of "who is this question arising to?", "who am I?", "what am I?" — and then waiting for the answer, and then if thoughts come in, the idea is, "well, who is that thought?" I know you know this incredibly well, but I have found that just incredibly helpful and fascinating. I'm amazed that something so fundamental — kindergarten almost, in nonduality — I've just not engaged with.

But I'm seeing now that by doing self-inquiry, to get back to where we came in, we come back to Awareness — which is what it's all about: being Awareness alone, unity itself. And that that enables... to stop that apparent shadow — that false self, however you want to put it, the small self or whatever — from getting in the way. And it just seems to pave the way to Awareness. It just clears. It's just like, there it is. There it is.

And there's just that character... I guess the question I have is, I'm quite excited about this. It's like a great thing. I just feel I've discovered something really incredibly valuable that I've overlooked. But is self-inquiry more of a thing to do at the beginning, or... I mean, do you still do self-inquiry? Is that still... I don't know how you put it. Is that something you do? Do you still go through that process, or have you moved on from that?

NSo first of all, it's not a beginner thing. Self-inquiry is the thing. It is the only way. The only way.

Everything else is extra. Meditation, whatever — it's not useful unless you're applying self-inquiry. I think this is the moment you should go back to Ramana Maharshi's book... I think it's called "Nan Yar?" — "Who Am I?" I think so. It's a very little book.

And he's very clear: this is the only way. Everything else he says is secondary. And the question is only, "Who am I?" For me, I prefer the question "What am I?" — but "Who am I?" is... whatever way you phrase it. You stop basing your identity on the phenomena, on the subjective. The only way you will find what is Real is to stop using the secondary to try to derive the primary. You go directly to what is primary. Like, the argument goes that my thoughts — I only have access to my thoughts, so I must be separate. That is using the secondary, the thoughts, to determine what you are. But self-inquiry would say: to whom do the thoughts arise?

And the answer is obvious. You don't need the thought to answer it. That's why Ramana Maharshi's phrasing is "Who am I?" — because it's a rhetorical question. There's no "who?" Who am I? To whom did the thought arise? I. What is that I? And there's a pause. You just focus on that pause, and in the pause, the answer is answered. That is I. That's why I say you are very simple. Your only quality is that you are Aware. And that is the answer in that gap. That's what you are. You are the Awareness.

And you ask if I still practice self-inquiry. It's no longer a practice. It's just recognizing. It's self-recognition. Once your inquiry has concluded and you have understood what the Self is, then self-inquiry is just self-recognition. And when most of the questions are like — you get lost in thought, or you get trapped in this and that — the way out is self-recognition. Because you have recognized what the Self is, you go back and recognize. That is what the Self is.

QI guess the feeling I've had, the experience I've had, has been that the Awareness is there — the fabric of everything — that whole thing is. But it's just that... as I said, it's so exciting to see that. And your answer there is fabulous — that that's the way, that's the way to just stay focused on it. I can't — once again, I hate language sometimes, because I just don't have the language to express what I mean. But it's the aware knowing — that's the Awareness, that's it. That's the thing. But then that process of doing self-inquiry just seems to... because I do drift. The feeling, the experience I have, is that you do drift away from it, even though it's like — yeah, I know, Awareness...

But somehow all that fog comes in, or the world gets in the way. And then it's just like — how did you say — you lose the contact, or you get lost. And it just seems to me like that just seems such a powerful way to push all of that stuff out of the way and just stay. Because that's all — I guess that's what we want, isn't it?

NSo what self-inquiry will help you see is that it's not possible for you to be getting lost. Because in that moment you feel you're lost, and you ask, "Well, who am I?" — you are still what is Aware. So who was lost, and in what exactly?

QYes.

NAnd the only way to know Awareness as Awareness is as the Self.

This idea of a fabric of Reality and so on — it's just the language I use. But to know Awareness, the only way to know Awareness is as the Self. Because you are what is Aware. Any other way we think of Awareness is thinking of Awareness as a field, as a fabric of Reality, as a foundation, whatever. Even talk of the Absolute becomes conceptual. To know Awareness, you simply inquire: what am I? And what you notice at that moment — that is Awareness. It's what you are. You are what is Aware. You are the Awareness.

QThank you. Thank you.

N[unclear], you're next.

QHi. I'm going to share something. So as this conversation was unfolding about — let's say the war, or what's happening in the world theater so to speak — I was busy doing some other things. That's why I had the video up, for some reasons. And I wasn't like, "I have to find out who am I" — nothing like that. The attention was just in the doing. And somehow, as I listened to the other people sharing...

the attention was just... the mind was just quiet. And I realized there were really no thoughts happening. I realized only when the thought — or the attention — went into the thought, and then attention split into "this is good, this is bad, this should happen, this shouldn't happen." The thought kept iterating. But more upstream, it was just beingness. I don't know the word for it, but there were no thoughts. I was just quiet, doing whatever I needed to, just listening to things in the background.

And all of a sudden, it was a recognition, like... Because when somebody asked what's real, what's happening — all of that just seemed like thoughts in my case right now. It was just seeing, and there was nothing to figure out. I was just doing my stuff, listening, and even self-inquiry seemed like a thought process — like something there has to inquire, and then to check, and then to recognize. But I was just sitting here and just being. Not trying to be — I'm just using a word to describe something.

It just seemed so easy. There was no doing, there was no effort, there was no even recognition. It was just a quiet nothingness, if you will. And I recognized myself and everybody asking questions doing the same thing. But in this case there was no question. But then I was thinking, okay, I don't have anybody in the countries — whatever is happening. And maybe if I did, and somebody I knew was harmed, or if I'm worried about them, maybe I'd have a different view. Maybe I'm detached from it. And maybe if I get a call tomorrow that something bad happened to somebody I know, maybe I'd have a different view. But then I was saying, well, that would still be a thought. Something I know, something happened — and all these thoughts are just unfolding.

And then I was thinking, is this a nihilistic view, or am I not doing? But it just seemed like when the attention goes into thought, it's splitting into all those things, and when it's just calm and still, there's nothing going on. So I don't know. I just wanted to share that in this moment, without looking for anything — just share. I'd love to get your take on it. What's happening here?

NSo in the last conversation, I was talking to [unclear] and she brought up the analogy of the river.

Usually the analogy goes, you should just go with the flow of the river. But what we discussed is there's no separate you to go with the flow or against the flow. There is the flow, and you — Awareness — are the riverbed in which that flow is taking place. And what you said is right: if you were connected to the conflict in some other way, the flow would be different. Awareness is the raw experience.

The raw experience is what you're Aware of. And in the human mind, thoughts are actually a way we turn that raw experience into something a bit more cooked. You can try to suppress emotion, try to think differently, and so on. But in Awareness, when the emotion is raw and as it is, there's no end to the extremity of it. Thoughts are just one kind of experience. There's feeling, there's sight, sound, and all of that — and others that you would never experience as a human, but they are there. There's the flow, and the flow can be beautiful. It can be extreme. It can be this and that. And the only thing we are doing is recognizing our role. Who am I? What is all this?

It doesn't take away from what a human society should aim for and do and so on. That's fine. I participate in it. But you can see the same view. You can look at a photo and just observe what's in the photo and the attributes of the photo, but at the same time be Aware of where you are looking from. And that is the riverbed. It does not flow. It's just fundamental. That is the strength, the calm, the saving grace of all of this. Otherwise there's no saving grace. If the normal view of the world is correct, even if one of the religions are right, that's terrible. If Reality were that way, that would be terrible. I hated that Reality. I believed in it. I thought it was wonderful. Then I realized that I hated it. That that kind of god is evil.

And then I was an atheist and I was depressed. And then I questioned again. And when I realized this, I realized why the Buddha called it the end of suffering. Because this is the only view from which suffering is seen for what it is, without belittling it. But there's also a saving grace to all that is happening, because there are no separate people dying separately and so on. Even though that is the experience, the Reality is beautiful.

QThank you.

N[unclear], let's go to you.

QHi. Hi, everyone. So it's really hard to ask a question because it's difficult to formulate. I think I'd rather maybe just provide some reflection that is kind of rising up for me as we're meeting here. And also thank you so much for giving us all this opportunity — it's just so wonderful to be with like-minded people, and that cannot be underestimated.

What's kind of rising up for me is just to welcome all experience, good and bad, and for me to view life — this appearance — as a gift. And if you don't like the word gift, then maybe an opportunity. So as an employee, whatever I put into that role is, to the most degree, what the outcome will be. When I was a child, when I didn't have so much agency, I was still in Awareness, and horrific things happened to me. That is also an experience that I carry with me in my mind, but it helps me to know that the self-inquiry — "what am I?" — it's the now. And that is something that is right here, right now, in this moment. War, no doubt, is a horrific thing. You don't even need to have a war — just the things that happen in people's homes, within four walls. Or a neighbor of mine that I've visited for years, and she's quadriplegic. She sits in her home and watches her family come in and out all day long.

When you sit and talk with her, it's going to be a very long experience, because any form of communication for her is very difficult and slow. But what I do in those moments when I'm there with her is I welcome that emotion — the emotion that challenges me in my mind to question who she is, why is she like this, why her? At the same time, my impatience, because I also have a schedule and I'm having to wait for her. But what happens is when I fall into that place — kind of like what [unclear] was saying — you don't have any thought or mind, and it's beautiful. Even the ugly part, there's beauty there. The beautiful part is beauty, and there's this underlying joy there. So I guess what's different for me as opposed to religions per se is that at the end of the day, I'm like... I'm not that person, I'm not that thing. I am the experience, and I will show up for it and be really good at whatever it is I'm doing. And that's been super helpful to me.

NThe question of why me? When the terrible thing happens, the question will arise — why me? Why is it happening to me? Or you see the injustice happening and ask, why is it this way?

With self-inquiry, the answer is quite different to what it used to be before all this. [gasps] The answer is: because you are Aware. It is in your nature to be Aware. Because the Self is nondual, wherever it is experienced, the Self will be Aware of that experience. It's a very different view to seeing individuals suffering injustice and all the scales not being balanced — because all that is only because we see people as separate conscious entities. But the whole point of this is there's no self to find. There's no separate self. It is in the nature of the Self to be Aware — not as a separate thing, but as the basis of all experience. And the answer to why me, or why this way, is: because you are Aware, the experience is possible. All the good, all the bad. Nobody chose it or set it up that way, but it happens as it does. And then from that view, of course, all experience is... what can you do? You can't reject it. Who will reject it? As soon as someone steps forward to reject it and be angry at it, the inquiry again reveals that to not be you. Who is that? That is just a thought.

QAnother... Yeah. So let me lower my hand here. The thoughts... absolutely, the Awareness is there. The thoughts come up. In one of your previous videos you talked about this process of selfing, and the subprocess — the process of Consciousness and then subprocess of selfing — that's really nice.

So thoughts arise, and then one of these... I think something — other than... it's not over them, but some one of the processes, whatever — the way you grew up, the thoughts and all that stuff, something in you has a choice to say: okay, am I going to give attention to this thought or not? And it depends on the belief of that selfing thing. Okay, I was born in Iran, and I studied the history of Iran, and I have this and that about Iran and all that stuff. So that's my selfing, basically, that took place. So a thought comes and I give attention to it, and the thing about the thought is that it has infinite power. So it can snowball out of control, and then it produces emotions and all that, and it's all happening in Awareness. So, and then, like you said, that's the key — the choice. I don't know who's making that choice, but that choice of stepping back and asking, doing the inquiry, saying "to whom is this?" and "who am I in this?" — the question is how much access you have to that opening, enough of an opening for you to sneak that in.

And the last couple of weeks, I intentionally wanted to go there. In hindsight, it's bad — if you go there, it's really hard to dig yourself out of it, because it snowballs so much that you just can't find that opening to do this. But it's always... I guess these openings will happen. It's the nature of Consciousness. It's the nature of this perfection. This thing that we are — body, mind, all of that happening in Awareness — there is absolute perfection in there, and it provides the opportunity to see that opening and make that choice.

So it's basically... sorry, my son just stepped in. So it's basically... it's like — here's Awareness, and you're completely Aware, things are good, going well, the beautiful nature and everything. Springtime here in California, birds are singing, beautiful sunshine, thoughts come. Okay, easy. Make a choice. You know, I remain in Awareness. I fully see that this is happening in Awareness. I acknowledge all that, and you see yourself as that.

Then something... I mean, it's just — in order to give attention to the world, you have to kind of... I read this, I said: to see the world you have to forget Self, and to see the Self you have to forget the world. Remember I was talking about remembering and forgetting? To remember Self you forget the world, and to remember the world you have to forget the Self, or something like that. So these things, every second, they arise, they come, and then it's a choice you make, and so forth. And somehow the magic of this is that the opening comes. And no matter how your selfing has been — the process of selfing has been — how screwed up you may be, or sane you may be, or saint you may be, and all that — in that process, these choices are provided.

It's just that, and that's why we're talking here. I think we're not talking to Awareness. We're talking to those processes, to mold those processes, to give tools to this mind to get to the essence of the mind, to get to the one mind. And to see that this is... it's just amazing how perfection is there, even in the ugliness and atrocity and all that — there's always perfection, and you can see that. Sorry, we're blabbering in here. But who are we talking to? I mean, you and I are talking, and we're trying to condition that self in process — that thing — to be able to cope, to be able to inquire, to be able to get to that mind. Because Awareness doesn't need to talk. [laughter] Doesn't need to know any of that stuff. Awareness is kind of neutral. It's there. Everything happens. It's a riverbed.

So, you know, it's dirty muddy water flowing through, or clean water, and all that. So what we're doing in here is talking, and I think in this kind of thinking — when you think about the mind, and one mind, the way the Zen masters say it, or the way Buddha says it — I find it very appealing. The first time you talked about mind and going there, I kind of hated it. I said, I don't want... I have an idea of the mind. Mind is evil. So I don't want to listen to that. And now I see — yeah, you just take that one, because the mind is also very personal to you. It's you. All these experiences, very intimate feelings, emotions and all that.

So approaching it from the aspect of the mind, and trying to look at it as an essence of the mind — it's kind of... you see everything is one. It's one mind. But all these ripples occur. I don't even know what I'm saying. But it's just so perfect. And it's so... I mean, it's infinitely mind-boggling and infinitely perfect, despite the appearance of things.

NSo what I would return to is: what you are is very simple. The mind-boggling stuff is all in the experience — the appearance, the mind, whatever.

Even choice is an experience as you are. You do not make choices. You have the experience of choices being made, but you're not actually making the choices. What is choice? It's just the experience of a decision being made. But who made it? If there is a separate self, then that could make a decision, but there is none. And as you said, the mind is infinitely complex. It is interrelated factors working, and then something happens and you experience it. And you said Awareness is neutral. But that is actually looking again at Awareness from a third-hand perspective. Are you neutral?

When there's no experience, maybe you could say I am just at peace. I rest in peace — dead. But when there is experience, then that experience defines what is present. I am the depth of emotion. Whatever is beautiful, terrible — that is the depth of Awareness. The heights, the lows — that is Awareness. Neutral is just one part of the landscape. But yes, Awareness is ever the peace. Whenever you return to... okay. But yes, this is what's happening — but what am I? I am very simple. I am what is Aware, and there is the peace in knowing that, which you can return to. Just make it very direct and very simple. The choice is whatever the mind has been shaped by — the world and its memories and all that. Yes. However, who are you?

QYeah, but is it your experience that — let's say we do exactly that — but you still find yourself in between ignorance and knowledge?

Like, something happens, gets you off guard. You go there and then you come back. Like what you were saying to Neil — the self-inquiry is always going on, because every moment, in order to kind of realize, you do that. It's not that you stay in that. It's not that you're constantly in that. Experiences do happen that affect you momentarily. And it's just the difference between an enlightened person and an ignorant person is how quickly they get back to realizing — okay, this is... I mean, is that also the process? Is that from your angle, from your perspective — is realizing there are no persons, there's no enlightened person, no unenlightened person, there are no people... that is the... there's no enlightened person?

NEnlightenment is — whenever there's the realization there are no people.

QPardon me, like I know that, you know, I know that, but firsthand experience — you get, you feel like a blow comes to you and you feel that your feet are not on the ground, let's say. I'm sorry, the language is so... you cannot say these things, but think what I'm saying. Your firsthand experience takes you, but then from that firsthand experience you come back into realizing Awareness.

So it's all — I'm talking about the first time, like what I'm experiencing. So you oscillate — every second you have this going on.

NSo you see that you are not oscillating. That is just the experience oscillating. It becomes experience-dominated in the usual way, or within the experience there's the inquiry and the knowledge — but that is still experience, while you remain as you are.

You went from the firsthand perspective. To get to what you're saying, at best I can do is just say what I say: experience happens for a moment, I — the Awareness — forget myself, but then I come and remember myself. That's the best I can say.

QAnd that's still different. What you are saying is that even though that worse thing happens to you, while that's happening, you as a first-time experiencer of that — the first time you... you still know that this is not you. I mean, you never, even for a fraction of a second, forget that knowledge. It's not memory-based. It's like the mountains do not lack the qualities of mountains — you never lack the quality of what you are. And any other quality that's disturbing you, like "not you," it's just not your quality. It's just a quality of the experience. So the whole discussion... it's like talking about a different topic. Mountains do not lack the qualities of mountains, otherwise it would not be something.

NSorry. Let's — a couple of other hands up. So let's go through that. Liam, you were there. I wanted you to say hi also. I don't know if he's gone.

QCan you see me? Can you see me on the video?

NYes.

QAnd greetings to you all. I'm privileged to be here, and you know, it took me a long time to get here, but the rice wasn't ready, Nabeel. I love your videos. I think we have an expression that if you live in the world, the world will live in you. And so as Nisargadatta used to say, the bar of soap has to be submerged in the water for it to be dissolved, and that takes sometimes a period of time. It has taken quite a period of time for me anyway. But it's great to be here. There are really kind answers to everything from the point of view of Awareness. You won't find the solutions in the external. He says action only happens in the Awareness — that's where real happening is, and it's the only thing. The rest is kind of activity from the external point of view.

Now, the notion of suffering that people have — the emotional suffering — everybody goes through that. But what people do is a statement about them. All I have to do — for me anyway — I was listening to [unclear], they were doing something on quadriplegia. I have a daughter who has Alzheimer's and other conditions. And sometimes she gets lucid and she'll say, "I'm very sorry," you know. And that brings me to tears. She'll look at me and say, "I'm more sorry to you than you are to me." That kind of does something, you know. I find that I have a disposition of gratitude for all that I have. I am really blessed with all of it. And this teaching has revealed to me, and has relieved me really, of this notion I had of myself. Nobody can reduce me to a personality anymore and kick me around the place. I have great freedom in that regard.

I see where people are coming from, and I'm given the opportunity often — when people come to me — to get them to listen to themselves and so forth. I think your videos have really distilled the whole thing. You have to be commended for that. And I envy you — you're so young and such a handsome dude as well! The fact that you've been given all this great insight and so on and so forth. Bless you and thank you, and it's great to be here. Stay well.

NThank you, Liam. Nice to meet you. I think one thing — it goes back to what we were talking about — you just accept as well that this mind is the way it is.

I will live this life out the way this mind has been shaped. That is fine. In that sense I have my flaws and I have my strengths, and whatever, and that will continue. But there was a — I have to go back and read it again — but there's a point where the Buddha hears that his home country has been invaded, and he does feel something. He has a reaction to it. That does not change that he was the Buddha. He had realized the truth. The truth does not change based on events in one life. It does not change based on what the experience is. We arrive at the truth. We see what the truth is. It remains ever true.

Mountains never lack the qualities of mountains. You remain what you are. We had a question from the chat, I think. Angela, is that you? Let's see.

QCan you hear me?

NYep.

QGreat. Sorry, I couldn't raise my hand. For some reason, it just wouldn't let me.

I first wanted to start off by thanking you for your videos. I find them probably clearer than anything I've ever heard before. So thank you for that. And I kind of wanted to, I guess, check in to see if I'm off base on something here. So I'll give you a little bit of... I'll try to make this very short. I know I'm Awareness. I'm not... well, I'm always Aware, but my mind doesn't always think I'm Aware. Let's put it that way. But I know that Awareness is what I am, that it never changes, it's always there. So that part I feel pretty solid about.

What it seems to me is that the world comes into existence by Awareness. I'm going to use words here that I'm not sure are right. Seeing, hearing, sensing. As far as I can tell, anything I look at is made out of my senses. There's nothing actually there. If you go through removing all the kinds of Awareness from it, it isn't really there.

And lately I think I've been doing a lot of work with the doership piece. I feel like what I think I see is that everything is just happening. There's really no reason for anything, there's really no cause and effect — it's just happening. And that includes everything that happens through [unclear]. In terms of decisions, thoughts — those things are just happening, and there's no control over them. Which then led to the thought — or I guess led somebody to the thought — that if that's the case, there's really nothing. I think I finally understand why people say there's nothing you can do to become enlightened. Although I still feel very driven to do things like look at your videos, but I know that's just happening now. So I think what I'm asking is: if all of those things that I think I've seen are correct — it's really given me a huge sense of freedom and relaxation, to know that I don't really have to do anything. It's just going to happen or not going to happen, and it's just how it is. And also, it's easy — if everybody else is the same in the illusion, then you can't really blame anybody for anything, because it's all just happening.

Sorry, more longwinded than I thought.

NSo all the wisdom teachings are describing the nature of what you are, which does not change. And you start to see that right in the seeing — there's just the seeing. There's no actual separate object. You are seeing, the seeing is the object, and the object is the seeing, and the seeing is Awareness in action. When something is happening, what we call the happening — the experiencing — is Awareness taking shape. So in that sense, yes, cause and effect help us understand why something happens a certain way. And actually the universe follows that rule — but it's the rules of this universe. The dream universe doesn't negate that. It doesn't take away responsibility and acting well in the world and all that. That's fine. But it is spontaneous. Whenever something arises, it's spontaneous. It is Awareness taking form.

And what are you? You are what is Aware. This is why it's nonduality — not two, not even one — because there's no separate entity. No one entity. It's just all there is. You said the mind is sometimes not thinking of you as being Aware, like it thinks you're not Aware. But actually, the way the mind works, there's always the assumption that there's an Awareness of what is going on. If there's emotion, there's pain — all of that is designed to raise an experience. It's designed with the knowledge, or the information, that there is an observer.

Whatever has evolved this organism makes use of that. Why is there pain and pleasure and all the different mechanisms? They make use of the fact that there is Awareness, because otherwise it would work very differently. There's no need to produce pain and pleasure and all that otherwise. There's a hack life found, using a resource which was already there. Awareness is fundamental. It allowed life. And the mind operates with that assumption. And that's why we can plant in it the seed — which [unclear] was talking about — that sometimes, yes, we are planting in the mind the thought processes, the seed to question: well, you already think there's someone who feels the pain, and someone who knows this love, and this whatever — who is that?

And then the mind stops, because it cannot observe the observer. It is not the observer itself. It is what is being observed. And it allows for the self-reflection for you to realize what you are.

QThank you. Thank you.

NHi, [unclear].

QHi everyone. Sorry, my camera is not working today. One of the questions that I had is maybe just extending the last conversation — Angela's question and your response to that, [unclear].

Can I ask — can I use you as my brainstorming means to understand... at a certain standpoint, there seems to be nothing. A sum total of activities in the world, a sum total of activities in anyone's life, is basically nothing, because there is no one to experience those activities. So from that standpoint, automatically the element of not caring, or being unconcerned about anything, happens. But then the struggle is — because everything is happening on its own, and from a certain standpoint everything happens on its own — does the concept of dharma then play a key role? And does the dharma then apply based on the set of events that has happened to this body up until now, which I call karma?

And will that become my dharma to follow? If that makes sense. I don't know if my question makes sense. I'm not sure I asked the question, so let me rephrase that in a different way. We don't exist — I mean, I don't exist in the human form, and whatever is happening is experience, and the body's reaction to memory and whatnot. So the sum total of activities that this body has done up until now is, from a certain standpoint — from my standpoint — nothing. I just exist, continue to exist.

Basically, I am all minds up until now, and all minds that will be in the future, so for me there's no time. From that standpoint, when I say "me," I'm referring to Awareness. From that standpoint, basically, nothing that happens has any weight. The meaning becomes irrelevant. The meaning of life becomes irrelevant. And when the meaning of life becomes irrelevant, my question is: just for the body to function, should there be the concept of dharma? And if so, is that dharma limited to the body's birth and the body's experience that has evolved to where it is at this point in time? Because let's say I'm an Australian, or I'm an Indian-Australian — so I have to behave in the dharma of an Indian. Does that make sense? I'm a dad. I have to exhibit the dharma of a dad. So is that... I don't know if this is necessarily the outlook one should have towards life.

NI mean, to me it just naturally carries on. When you see all of that was happening anyway, without there ever being a self. There was never a self. It still operates the same way. It was all working the same way. There was the assumption that I am X. The X never existed. The assumption got cut out. But it doesn't mean the cars stop working. The engine still runs the same way. The body digests the food. It's all the same. And as those dad experiences happen, they're just natural. You feel the affection, the responsibility. It does not negate that. The dharma is just the truth. Realizing the truth — the nature of Self, the nature of Reality — and the nature of Reality of course explains things as they are, as they always have been.

And in those lives where this question never arose, where this realization was never had, the truth is still true. And in the lives where the truth is realized, at one level the mind has been fundamentally altered, but the rest is the same and it can operate. Actually, don't make it too complicated. You just look at it as: what am I, what is my role in all this? My actual role. And then there's no one to step in the way of the normal way of things happening. I'm a dad — it's mine...

QYeah, so if I understand you correctly, Nabeel, you're saying follow through with the experiences that I have had until now, and just follow through with the realization that it's just happening. Is that right?

NThe realization is about your identity, what you are. It does not change how experiences unfold, or what the life story is, and what goes on, and what you do in life.

It is only... it's only having realized what your identity is, what you are, and what everyone else is. It was unclear. There was stuff. It was unclear what it was. It was unclear what you are. Now that is clear. But the rest goes on. And there's no divine commandments on how we have to act and so on. That one is just based on having seen the truth — it should be obvious what is good and what is not.

QYeah, makes sense. Thank you. Thank you.

NAll right. Thank you all for joining. I think we'll end here for today.

QThank you. Thank you for the conversation. Thank you, Nabeel. Thank you very much. And happy... happy day to you all.

NThank you. Mind yourselves. Stay well. Good night.

QThank you very much indeed.