How Do You Know You're Not Dreaming? | A Satsang on What's Real [public version]

NHow can you tell if something is real? How can you tell if you're not dreaming? Folk wisdom is you pinch yourself. You pinch yourself.

It's a bit naive, isn't it? You can feel the pinch in a dream. But look at it a different way. What is the pinch telling us? I think there's another answer in the pinch. There's actually a bit of wisdom to it. First thing the pinch does — it's not a conceptual answer.

It brings to the very front the fact that you're conscious. It immediately brings to the fore what is real and cannot be doubted. Because the question was: am I dreaming, is this an illusion? And it's showing you: look, this is fact — you are conscious. And the second thing it does: it sets the basis and it shows you your basis. How would you judge what is real? It's kind of shaky. When we take something to be physical and solid and so on, it's actually just — we're just judging the vividness of the experience. How sharp is the experience? But it's still experience. It's experiential. There's actually never a physical object, but just the solidity of the experience of the sense of touch and so on. And so in that way the pinch test is quite a non-philosophical, non-conceptual answer to a very interesting question. How do we know what is real? How do you know this is not an illusion?

Instead of trying to prove that this is not an illusion, it shows you what is real. And a lot of what the wisdom teachings are doing are taking everything as it is and just reframing it to show you the standard of what is true and real and abiding and never changing. So you have to find that standard of Reality — what is real — because even in the illusion the truth must be present. Reality must be there to sustain the illusion.

So it's not a question of are we being deceived or is there an illusion. We're just being clear on what is real. All right, let's go into a discussion. Hey Rachel.

QHi Nabeel. You know I can hardly wait to interact with you. So what you're saying is now everything occurs within Awareness. Everything emerges out of that. So if Awareness is everything then the physical body emerged within Awareness. So this experience — we can only have experience with the physical form, with the senses engaging in interacting with objects or triggering memories. So everything is Awareness. Everything occurs within Awareness. So what is really false?

NWhat is really — in the pinch there is no body. There's no physical. All that is later. We try to figure out what's going on and there's the concept of bodies and so on. But in the pinch it's just the sharpness of sensation. It's the experience. That's all there is.

QYes. So in what is understood as Reality there are no separate objects, right? If you think of a body you have to think of a separate object, but there are no independent objects and there are no separate selves. That is what you arrive at, right? So then when it is said Awareness is all there is, it's actually very literally and very deeply that — in that there's nobody in your actual observation ever.

NRight. All there ever is is Awareness because the experience itself is that. And there are never any separate independent objects to be found. Like we are setting frames around a picture but the picture extends beyond the frame. The frame was arbitrary. Like when you see a picture you're focused on that but your seeing extends beyond that. So the boundaries always —

QSo — go ahead, sorry. Sorry, I want to hear what you have to say.

NThe boundaries — all the boundaries are conceptual and they're based on an aspect of the experience — the edge, the shape — but it's all within the seeing, for example. So there's never an object experienced. It's all —

QSo the conditioned seeing and the brain's interpretation of the parameters of the physical form is what we've been taught is who we are. That silhouette around. So from the beginning of human curiosity that concept emerged. So now to neutralize that concept, it's a very interesting process. And can you speak more to that about what we identify as this body versus the right view of this body?

NBut that's the pinch test. That's the answer. The answer is in the pinch. Cuz in the pinch, where's the body? There's no — it's just — it brings to the fore what is actually real. What is real is the fact of being conscious. And then the body is based on observations within the experience — the sight, the sensation and so on. And you collect them in a bag and the bag is conceptual and that is called body.

QThe bag — the bag is a bunch of memories that we have of experiences within the form. Or is the bag bigger than that? Does it contain more than that?

NMemories and so on. Yes, they're related to that one life. But also memories are just experiences being created in the moment. I think we talked about —

QYes. Because memories can be very misleading. You're very sure that you're remembering it — this is how it was — but it's totally wrong.

NYes. Because it's being recreated in that moment.

QThank you. Thank you very —

QSorry. Good afternoon. Can you hear me?

NYep.

QIt's actually funny. You should start this meeting with the question you asked because that's been bugging me for the last couple of weeks since I was last in one of these meetings. But here's how I would characterize this question. Sometimes I wonder — this whole idea that okay, there's this screen sort of behind me, and things are projected on the screen, and I'm just kind of like a robot and I think I have agency but it's really not. This is really the screen on which everything's happening. Correct? I mean sometimes — I've heard this a million times and I think I've sensed it on occasions — flickers or shivers of recognition — but then sometimes I wonder: is this just this grand theoretical concept that's being proposed and I'm just buying into this crap? Like what is the certificate of authenticity of that statement? Is it something I just believe because you've been there — it's like, hey listen, trust me, this is correct, do not doubt it? Option A is just believe me, and option B is: there is something that's not mental, that's not just conceptual, to certify that. Come on, damn it, here's an argument that's unassailable that says this is correct. So is there some way I can get some guaranteed assurance — either like, hey listen I've been there, I can't describe it in words dude but you know you got to believe me — that's option A — or option B is: here, try this. Come on, let's look at the obviousness of X, and this obviousness of this X confirms that this is not just theoretical mental cogitation. It's real. How would you answer that? How do I lay to rest this sort of doubt?

NI don't know if the question — I mean I'm sure — I think the question makes sense. It's kind of what you started with.

QIt is. Yes.

NYes. So you're very right. So when we start to talk about this, we again get lost in analogies and concepts and so on. So when the screen is not a correct analogy, it's wrong. When you go to the deepest teaching — like I often return to the Heart Sutra — and right at the beginning, form is Emptiness and Emptiness is form. It captures the equation in a way but it's not a conceptual equation. Okay. Take that test. You pinch yourself. Pinch yourself hard. Ouch.

Is that pinch conceptual? Is it conceptual?

QReal. I mean I can't say it's a concept. Yeah.

NLike that — if we just stop talking. It's not a concept. The feeling is there.

QAgreed. And what is that proving?

NThe first fact it proves is you are conscious. Not something else, someone else or so on. Like all that is hypothetical. You are conscious.

QWhen you say the you, you mean the body you or the big you?

NBecause when we say body you, then that's a concept of what you are. But the pinch doesn't say you're a body. It's just telling you you are conscious. Whatever you are, you are conscious.

QYeah, sure. Fair enough.

NThat's the truth about you. The fact's been communicated. You are conscious. It's not said in words. Every experience says that you are conscious. It's proving it. Proving it. And what is the other thing the pinch is telling you — that you might be spending years in meditation trying to figure this out and so on. And the pinch very quickly shows you: what would you arrive at that would tell you, oh yes, I've understood Reality — this is real? There's no such thing. What could it be? It could be an equation. Is that satisfying as — this is what is real? Whatever you arrive at would at best just be an experience.

And to take the vividness — how sharp an experience is or how clear it is — to be the standard of Reality again falls short because it's just an experience. So actually the first thing that you got out of this is the deepest you can get. This is what is ultimately true.

Now from there comes the insight of what is the Self and what is all this. Because we are resetting — just take away all the beliefs. Because as long as it's belief-based it's not yet — it can be wrong, it will be. So sweep aside all the beliefs and we look at it based on just that one demonstration. You are conscious and anything that is ever observed — what could we call it? It's just Consciousness taking form. And the form is what is real — is Reality itself. And Reality is the form in that moment.

So when you say Emptiness — what is it? Emptiness is the ultimate Reality in which we find that there are no independent objects. Like what looked like independent objects — an external world — turns out to be entirely experiential and one Consciousness in which there are no separate things. And what was considered as me, a separate self, turns out to be no. There's no separate specific thing that is you, but you are conscious. So that is the equation being put forward but it is to be understood non-conceptually — that the form itself is the ultimate Reality in this moment.

This is what it's taking shape as. And what else could it be? And what you are cannot be anything else either. In fact, by being conscious, you are placed at the heart of Reality. Cuz we are not finding any selves, any separate independent conscious agents. Those only ever exist in thought, in imagination.

QI have to dream about this. I don't know — the thing is, as soon as you start saying this, all these concepts start connecting inside the head, and then it becomes a head process. The absorption of what you're saying just instantly triggers in the head and then — I'm sure — I think that means I just lost the point right there. So just trying to see or understand — that's why I like to hear it in different words, because hopefully one of those characterizations might click, of hearing it multiple ways and from multiple people, and something clicks and like, oh, done. But the problem is the mind starts processing the words and trying to connect them together and it's like stop — but I don't know how to stop that, not let that happen, or digest this from where you're sort of — understand it from where you're saying it.

NSo even when the mind is going on its own track, just treat it — there's two tracks to it. When I pinch there's a mental track which is like the thought: ouch, stop doing it. But at the same time there is the actual sensation. There's two tracks to it. We're leaving the thought-based track — let it go on — look deeper. You are the non-conceptual argument or proof. See, it's also present in the same moment. So forget the — I mean it's there. It's fine. The thinking is going on. It's not you thinking. It's just — you're hearing it like there's this noise, but you're focused on something else.

And you're focused on: what am I? What is this proving you to be? And what does that prove — that when we think of everyone else, what could they be? It's not like you arrive at it only for me — like this is what me is. No, it's explaining what "I" means anyway.

We don't stop the — like in rare occurrences thought might stop but it might return too. And like I said that's not the objective. Yeah, it's good if it's quiet for a while. So we try to put it — stop it in its track for a while — but when it's there we just again — we've found a new standard of truth. The standard of Reality. You have to realize what it is and then all the other stuff is just sparkling or whatever — the noise and so on. Because then even the thought, no matter what the words are — what it's actually saying is the same as the pinch. You are conscious. Otherwise how would you know that this thought — and then the content of the thought is not as important as what it actually shows you. The Self. The Self.

QI sort of think I see, but I'll think about it some more. Maybe next time I might have a follow-up or something perhaps. But thank you.

NYeah. Thank you. Eventually you'll just leave the thinking. Thinking will go on.

QOkay.

NLet it be.

QYeah.

NBecause it doesn't click in thought. The click is not in thought.

QGot it.

NHey — another, how are you?

QHi Nabeel, very good thanks. Good to see you. So yeah, the pinch tells you quickly that you are conscious and then one track says what am I conscious of? And yeah those are experiences — they come and go. You're always there. So I'm getting to this thing: what is the meaning of anything — like anything you experience, what is the meaning of it? The meaning of it is what it is. Like you can put — like you said in one of your videos — only by applying a veneer of words you try to say I know, I know what it is and all that, but really you don't know. Mind doesn't know what anything is. So what it is — the thing is to me — and then you are aware of that, aware of all these experiences that come and go. Those experiences in a way — you get to a point where you say all of those experiences is also me. Like it's the Awareness itself. Like you said Emptiness coming to the fore. It's probably a way to finding your "I am" from the pinch test, then following through — you center yourself in the wholeness of everything. Like you are everything — the Awareness — and everything you see is just you. You cannot separate that because it doesn't — even with mind — that you personally — you just have to use the mind when you want to, some level of the mind or whatever we want to call it — something that we are when we're conscious in this world. This is the thing that we're given. This is the manifestation of that Emptiness in this form and this form has to just use what it's got to figure out what it is, what's there, and —

NSorry. How much of it did you hear?

QYeah, I got the first one.

NChange my — just — no, sorry.

QYou got the first one. Okay, let me go inside. Trying to enjoy the nature. Is it better now?

NBetter.

QYeah. Better. Okay. Yeah. Maybe I can summarize. Thing that says: what is the meaning of anything that you experience? And you don't know what it means. It is the meaning of it. It itself is the meaning of it. Can you kind of talk to that and how that lets you arrive at the fact that everything is that Awareness — like it's no separation — even the things, that duality of what you're observing versus the observer — observe — it's no duality. Because you know — just talk to that a little bit.

NYeah, sure. So the way that meaning thing becomes interesting for me is when I go back to Adam's creation. When God created Adam, why was he the greatest of creatures? He just had the ability to name things. That was what set him apart. That's the intellect. Adam is the intellect. The intellect names things and by naming it somehow it's magical. It feels like now I know this thing. It's familiar. I know it. I know what it is. Yeah. A rose. I know what a rose is.

What do you know? You've just given it a name. The meaning is actually — we fool ourselves — which the language is: concept built on concept. And they're quite complicated and they're quite amazing but they're still entirely an abstraction of what is actually there — just an abstraction. Like you see how people are fooled by these text chat agents and LLMs and so on. It's just text. It's like a next-level abstraction of thought and people are fooled by that — that maybe this thing is conscious — because they don't understand how it's churning it out. It's just abstraction. And the meaning of anything, like you said, is the thing in itself. And again like when we do the pinch test it's overriding that conceptual layer. Because you know when in meditation as well what you're trying to do is get to that space where you're overriding all of that — or you're going underneath that conceptual side of it which might still be going on — but you found another level at which you are making that observation, which you're making the realization, the recognition. So in the pinch you could ask: okay, where am I right now? What am I right now? And because when we ask it just normally then thought will take over and we'll stuck there. But when this is overriding that — and if you observe it clearly — well, I am not in a particular shape right now. The shape of me right now is the sensation. If you were going to talk about a shape of yourself.

Yeah. The shape of what I am right now is the world. It's not just the hands and the legs down there or whatever. It's only by giving this a name that this is Nabeel. This is me. Again, we're making that funny jump now. This is what I am. This is me. That's what I am.

But so we take away the names and that's where it again — you can get stuck and you think oh I have to stop labeling everything, I have to train the mind not to label anything. No — because that is Adam's function. The intellect is there and it will name, it'll talk. But you are not that. You are what is conscious. And what does it mean to be what is conscious? It means that whatever appears is actually already part of what you are. What else could it be? Is it not Consciousness? To be conscious is that whatever is known. It can only ever be an expression of what you are, what you can experience, what you can take shape as.

QYeah, this pinch thing is pretty useful. Not only it gives you your "I am" but also you can say — you just got pinched and say what was it that I just experienced — try to conceptualize that. The pinch itself — you can't point at it or anything like that. It is just the experiencing. So it's not that I experienced the pinch. It was just the experiencing of the pinch. So there was no "I" and no pinch. It was just experience — experiencing in action — which is Awareness in action.

There was I but I was not a particular shape or form or —

NRight.

Q— had a specific name or individuality but there was — you were — and that's like you're now the visual reminder of the Bāhiya Sutta for me because we always talk about it. The Bāhiya Sutta — that's what the Buddha meant. He's not saying Bāhiya you do not exist at all — and you know you're like, why is he talking to him? But he's saying look: in the seeing only the seeing, in the heard only the hearing. So there's all that and you're not in that, you're not with that — you're not something additional to that — but he doesn't deny Bāhiya. So who is Bāhiya then? He realized it for himself. I am but I'm not — like because he begged Buddha for his eternal well-being and bliss and tell him the eternal truth. This is the truth. Who will you save or make better or perfect when you are already the basis of all the seeing, the hearing, all the feeling.

NIf you are the basis of that, that is what you are, then you are already at the heart of Reality — like the deepest, most wondrous aspect of Reality — or actually the Reality. Cuz all of the other stuff is just the light in a way — like shapes, forms, this bursting out just because there's Awareness, you are aware. Cuz if you were not — which is ridiculous again — then none of that's possible. To be conscious is not a little thing. But by naming it, by assuming things own it, we have — Adam made that sin. He took — he ate from the tree of knowledge. That was the original problem. That is the problem.

He took this thing for himself like I am what is conscious. The intellect says that — I, this thing, is conscious. Now I have to prove that it's not this thing that's conscious and then you're stuck in that intellectual loop. What is it that's conscious? And you can take it again. What is conscious right now? Who says it's the brain? Can you prove it? No. But in the moment it's clear: you are what is conscious.

QThank you.

NThank you. Rachel — you're on mute.

QSorry. Can you speak more about sensations within experience? And the reason I'm asking about that is I did a 14-day Vipassana retreat and with Vipassana you know the focus and the process — and I'm getting ready to do a 20-day — and the one thing that my observation has — I don't know, it isn't a knowing, it's just an understanding — the touch is such an amazing thing. Just the touch and the ripple effect of the touch and the waves that one touch sets off.

And with those waves, it comes — awakens the memories. That one touch can trigger a lifetime of experiences. The one touch. So when you're talking about this pinch, I'm like, holy shit. You know, this is just such a comprehensive experience, process, and understanding of the human form and what it is versus isn't.

NYeah. I mean any aspect of experience you pick up and you look at it deeply you're astounded. Touch — or sound, music — like you can — and then it feels: oh was I ignoring — was this there before, was I ignoring it? Like it suddenly feels new. It's magic. Wow.

QAnd going —

NIt's just — yeah that's the side of mindfulness to all this. It is to show you: look, look, you've been lost in thought. Look how deep this goes. If you were this body, then you should nicely always fit in these dimensions of space. But look — you can see the world. Where does the world exist if it's entirely —

QExactly. The seeing as seeing versus the seeing as the experience.

NYes. And when you feel an emotion, can it fit in the dimensions of this chest or is it much deeper?

QIt's much deeper.

NYeah. So the mindfulness just shows you how all the boundaries which were set in our concepts of our self are not real.

QNot true.

NYeah. They're not real. And then it shows you what life actually is. It actually was never about a single organism, person, thing.

QExactly.

NIt is the connections. It is the very intricate connections of what joins to be in one stream. And so that's what you begin to notice as you spend more time looking.

QOkay. Thank you. Thank you for that.

NNeil, how are you?

QI'm well, thank you. How are you?

NGood.

QGood. Good. Nice to see you again and be with everyone. It's funny listening to this — you starting off with the pinch and all everybody else has been saying.

And I can't help myself. I just love to read and I listen and I can't seem to stop. I can't seem to stop there. Even though I know that the searching thing is actually the thing that can get in your way. That the seek-out and the actual process of looking and searching is the barrier that stops you discovering your Reality, your truth, your Awareness. But I still tend to find myself going down that route. And at the moment it just seems like the simplicity and the need for simplicity — and they're not trying to teach that character, that person anything — and that understanding that even the seeking of that knowledge or of that understanding is part of the problem. Because it's just that I am what I am — always have been, always will be — the presence, the Awareness that we are, that we've always been. And more and more it just seems that I see that. I mean I remember being as a child there was just this presence and it was me, that presence. So it seems to me now as time has gone on that you see that the thing that I'm looking for is that presence that is the Self. That's it. I'm me looking for me. I looking for I. Sometimes it just seems so crystal clear and simple. And the simpler you say my outlook — or that simple understanding of just being aware. You are Awareness as we hear so much in the Advaita and during the satsang — I am that. That is what — there's the answer. There's the totality. As I say I tend to get dazed and I look at other things but ultimately you always come back to that. I always come back to that. It's just the simplicity of the whole thing. I think that was the beauty that I found in the beginning was just being — being your Awareness. There it is. There's the answer. Trying to convince my intellect or my mind — that just completely just seems to blow it out of the water. I'm completely finished. As soon as I'm in there trying to teach myself something, it's like no, no — as they say, it's perfect. The Awareness is perfect. It's perfect within itself. There's — there it is.

And it's just — it's almost like just keep going. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Like yes, yes it is. Yes, it is. And accepting it and being it and being in Awareness — that seems to do it for me. But anyway, one of the things that came up for me reading as you suggested to me — there was just this Ramana passage. I'll have to read it because it's question number five and it says: "Will there not be realization of the Self even while the world is there" — in brackets, "taken for real"? And his answer is: there will not be. I mean that's quite a statement I think. Like no — there cannot be Self-realization all the time you think the world's real. That's the way I read that. Do you understand it? Is that the deal? And if you do see it that way?

NI mean he — it can hit you in multiple ways. As long as the world is there you are taking it to be external, to be real, and then Self-realization cannot be there. When the world is not there it means it's consumed by the knowledge of Self. The world is just then an expression of Self. It's not a world. It is now what you see it for what it is. So there is no world. That's what he's trying to express. And the brackets part is added by the translator or something. So actually the question was more root-like — because of the idea that oh as long as the world is there I will not realize, the world has to disappear, I have to in a way extinguish everything and then I realize — which is true in a way but also false. Because it's not about — it's not how the devotee would imagine it or the aspirant. Like they would imagine there will be a point the world disappears from you, I cease to exist, and then I realize. However what the sage is saying: yes, as long as you see the world you have not realized because you're seeing a world — it's a physical place, a physical thing, and you are something in it. And so that's the problem. That's the duality, the wrong view.

And it can happen like just now I was watching — [unclear] dozed off. And his question was — no, it's beautiful. Like that's it to me again. It's a more amazing proof than the pinch. When you doze off all your questions die off. Then you return — the experience returns. You are what you are. And then the questions might start again. The questions are later. It's a separate layer. It's a conceptual layer. But the dozing off, coming back — it's proving what you are. You are aware. Yes. That's it.

And then the search aspect. The search — it can — it's just the intellect trying to figure out what you are. And it can realize — the intellect can decide — it's like what Adam did wrong. He took for himself from the fruit of knowledge. Like he's built a self for himself — like I am something of my own, I am conscious. And when Adam gives that up he submits to God again — that is the best the intellect can do. Oh, I am just — I'm thought. I'm a web of thought and you are listening to me.

There is no me because I'm just a web now. And in that then you start to enjoy Eden again. The garden of Eden — the presence you remember from childhood. Because now the conceptual is so ephemeral. It's just webs of — yeah. Oh, I've got a name for this. But wow, what is it now? I see it clear. It's like that.

QYeah. Can I just ask you one other thing again that's been — once again I think was from — and I came across this thing centuries ago, decades ago when I was in my early teens — and the heart cave. And he's very specific about it. It intrigues me so I hope you'll bear with me. He says the heart cave is — and he describes it as being on the right hand side.

NYeah. Two fingers. Two fingers.

QI tell you I don't — I mean I've done meditation for years and I'm aware of the inner world in the space but right hand side of the chest — don't get it. Am I lost in some kind of silly concept there?

NNo, I mean that was brilliant. I stayed with that for a while. Why did he say that? Why? And you can't — for me I say okay I have to understand what is the Heart for myself. What does it mean to you? And it's amazing when you go there because again it forces you to let go of the more conceptual search. The Heart — okay, go in, find out what is that. And he specifically says the right side and he says that he feels it there. I don't feel it on the right. I feel it in the middle. But it does distinguish it from being the physical heart on the left. But that's the main part — you have to distinguish. There's the physical heart and there's the Heart where I know my core is. Like the center of every universe is the Heart. In the center of every world — that's the center. What is that? Is that in the body? It's not the physical part. And so you go. And if you go there in meditation, you start to discover how vast is this. It's not inside actually. It encompasses the sound where it's coming from. It's like — so that's it. It just opens up your mind to what it means.

And he also has what would sound like contradictory statements. First he say sometimes he say it's in the right side then he said no it's actually not in the body. And so it's actually just opening your mind. And to him I think it expresses about Ramana Maharshi himself — realized when he was alone in the mountain and staying in the caves and he had some intimate — his own let's say journey or whatever path to that — what he's realized and he's describing some of that. But then again if you take it too literally — not you but someone — and they might say oh why can't I feel it there or must be wrong, I haven't figured it out and all that. But it's one of those brilliant things which you just give it a meaning for yourself. The meaning must come from you.

QOkay. All right. It was just the specificity of what he was saying. It was like I get that. Okay. All right. I've got it. Thank you. Thank you very much.

NLiam. Nice to see you. You're on mute. Still can't hear you yet.

QNo. Can you hear me?

NYes.

QOkay. Good to see you, Nabeel. Good to see everybody else. And thank you for these discussions and what they call them teachings. But I always remember you mentioned one time when you used to do your podcast that you weren't into the talking heads — but you've changed your mind anyway which is good for us. But I think like the purity of what spontaneity is — it can't be denied either. And while at the same time I love your readings and your wisdoms because I think it has been very important for me to kind of soak my bar of soap in the water as well and allow it to melt in those words. Because there's a lot of distilled wisdom there — very choice readings — and they have meant an awful lot to me.

But what I find is that I have a daughter. I mentioned it before that she has early kind of Alzheimer's. She's a Down's kid, you know, and she's the eldest of the family, but she's in a kind of a love state at the moment, which I'm delighted for her. And she's — everything is — she loves everybody and she's sorry if she makes the least kind of error in terms of what her discerning kind of way is or whatever. So it's just a beautiful experience that we're having. And it's very uplifting. But I sent you a little poem of mine there recently. But I mean it's just — I noticed that when I looked out and the scenery outside my home here recently that I had forgotten — I hadn't seen the obvious which was the space in which everything was held. And that's been a kind of a breakthrough for me. But I always come back — you kind of resonate with the words of Nisargadatta often. And he was very blatant and he was kind of brutal in many respects. He'd say the worst thing that ever happened to you was that you were born at all.

And you know — and that there was no me or you. And these things were kind of obliterated or shocked the ego in a big way. I can understand — I wouldn't have come to this particular journey or search unless I had gone through a lot of travail and a lot of suffering. So this is kind of a low-level search in many respects for me. But anyway I'm here and I'm glad I'm here and I wouldn't trade what has happened to me for what has been revealed to me. And I realized — like you know what [unclear] says of myself — I am nothing and all the rest. And it's all about the cloud of unknowing as John of the Cross says. And I know like that even the words that I speak — I know it's on you — all a lot of it is just kind of ego and trying to augment something or whatever. But I seem to be dropping it kind of continuously now. And I don't get perturbed. I don't get anxious. And as Nisargadatta used to say — react to nothing good or bad — and I find myself more so in that particular state now than I was before. And it isn't just a blasé kind of stoical thing. There's a kind of — it's kind of laced with a kindness and a general compassion. Because he does say as well — and I finish with this — he says the essence of what you are is pure love, pure Awareness, pure being. And that bliss — like it's so — and that essentially is. And we have a little phrase in Irish here. It says there's no home like your own home — or there's no heart. The heart is the fireplace. And there's no heart like your own heart. And it can be — we find a correlation there with that spiritual Heart. Two fingers to the right of the sternum. But that's kind of academic in many respects. But it's more — it's continuously a kind of a letting go for me, just losing these notions of trying to figure things out and so on so forth. I'm tiring of the journey and of the search.

NNo, I just — I listen. Thank you.

QThank you.

NIt's funny when his audience is very cynical and then he said, "Oh, your nature is all love and all bliss." He shocks the person. It's wonderful. Thank you for sharing. Razi.

QNice to see you.

NHi. Good to see you. Can you hear me? Okay.

QYeah. If you could touch upon what you said a little while earlier about Adam and the tree and the knowledge. That's one request. And the second thing I want to give you just briefly the context. Somehow I related to it the minute you said that. But I feel like — so yesterday something happened in my daily life. I just feel so like a pressure cooker in my head if you will in my daily life. It just seems like things are not working. Like constant helplessness, constant frustration, trying to use my head to figure things out in my daily life. And one of the problems that I'm having is just not being in action. Action happens when there's an emergency or there's a real problem. Then there's no thinking, there's just action. So I know it's not that I'm not capable of action. It just doesn't happen in daily life — like no schedule, no nothing — and just in mind so much. So yesterday there was so much arguments, constant frustration — and yesterday it was just out of desperation. The mind just couldn't figure anything out. So it was like, forget it. And there was this thing like I'm living my daily life as if everything's a problem. Everything. And then yesterday it was like wait a minute, wait a minute — what if I just live as if there was no problem? It was just like a curiosity. Cuz I was waiting for let's say my wife that I'm having arguments with and we're not talking right now. And so like I'm waiting for her and things for me and her to get better. But I was like what if I just acted like there was no problem — like if I just came from that point of view — and then something happened. I don't know how to explain it. It was just like there was lightness. There was no thinking. I was happy and there was no problem even though nothing outside changed.

And I just started acting like nothing's a problem and it was like a split second but it was out of desperation. And then constantly just being aware of the lightness within — just the thinking just kind of didn't go away but it wasn't a problem. I wasn't identified with the thinking. And then today happened and then the mind went back to the default mode of oh yeah right I'm not talking to her — just like that — and then it was believed. And then I'm like oh yeah and then it's like oh what should I do, should I clean my room, should I get — you know do this and do that. And that thing is so nonstop even though I get these moments. And then I meditate and then have a hard time just stopping, just stopping and just being here.

NSo part of even asking the question assumes there's a problem.

QBut I just — I wanted the benefit of your — I don't know. It's just something. And then something you said about Adam and I don't know. I don't know what to say. I feel so humble right now. I feel so humbled. But it's sort of a good thing in a way.

NGood. Let's start with the second. Adam we can talk about later.

QYeah.

NSee I don't know whose quote this is but I've heard it like: where are your problems when you're not thinking about them? They don't exist when you go to sleep. Where are your problems? They don't exist. The problem is in the thinking. It's being created in the mind. And so for that you can set up circuit breakers in your mind. And wisdom teaching is giving you how you can set them up. There's a photo of earth from Saturn. Carl Sagan talked about it very beautifully — the pale blue dot. He wrote a book about it. Like when the first time a human-sent satellite that went up to Saturn — it turned around and took a photo — and I think Carl had to convince them to do it. And just — earth is a little dot in the rings of Saturn. And then he describes all our problems, our wars we fought and everything is there on that little dot. And for him that's the context — what are we doing here? And then he also talks about the ambitions — human ambitions and so on. But look — that's what the wisdom teachings are also giving you. They're showing you this Self from Saturn — the being and so on — the view from Saturn. It's a brilliant work of light — beautiful — but all the problems are then set in context. They're actually not real problems.

Okay. And that does not mean then we sit and don't clean the room. But then it cleans up the mind first and then what needs to be done it'll happen. Because there's a certain focus that you see. And that's what anyone who's good at anything — what they can do is in the moment they're only focused at that task. About to take that penalty kick — if you're thinking about the crowd and you're scared — suddenly you're going to shoot it over the net. But the one who doesn't think of all that does it. So the problem is the thinking is creating all that noise which is sapping away your actual abilities.

QRight.

NAnd for that not to suck up all the energy is that you see through it — whose problem is all this about? And a lot of it is about self-image. And when you clear what the Self is then that image is about a muppet, the puppet or whatever — doesn't matter, doesn't matter. So you set up the circuit breakers in your mind that you see the true view. The true view is not about a few years on earth in a certain body. It's about seeing the nature of Self. And the intellect should accept that — that is the Self. It cannot be intellectualized. That is the actual Self. And then all the problems and so on — they're revolving around a nonexistent thing. That's the wisdom. It seeps in. It clarifies what is real there.

QOkay. So let's go to Adam then.

NYeah. So what — it's just interesting because for me, I used — I was religious for several — I don't know until the age of 18 or so. Not really religious but raised in a religious country and all that. And I believed in it for quite a long while. And but the Adam story was always ridiculous. What is this nonsense you had to believe in? But you know — it doesn't make sense.

And then later after all this it suddenly made sense. Oh that's what this was — an analogy. Because Adam — what is his power? He's the greatest of God's creations just because he can name things. What's that about? It's the intellect, the higher thought that we don't see in another animal.

Without which we wouldn't be having this conversation, without which there wouldn't be a Buddha. Because higher thought was involved to get to the point where you give up thought and you see the truth. You need a certain intelligence to question what am I. Before that — like some animals you show them a mirror they fight with it. They don't realize an image of the body. And then others realize oh that's me in the mirror. But then the next level of that is you realize that's not me in the mirror — that's not a reflection of me — and you see what you are. It requires a certain level of intelligence. And that is important here. That's what Adam had. But what he did wrong is that he had an ego. That's when he eats from the tree. The tree of knowledge is a knowledge — I am. And he takes it for himself. I am.

There's God and there's me. There's Consciousness and there's me and I am conscious. You have taken ownership of what you do not own, intellect.

QSo you say that the thinking — the thinking part — took ownership of that as opposed to being part of it. Is that what we are — a lot of us are making that misinterpretation or misperception?

NYeah. It's not even like you can't point to a thing and say that's the thing that made a mistake. Because it's actually this whole network up there. It's trying to build a model for the world and this model is built around the central aspect. There's a me — there must be a me — and that me is conscious.

It doesn't even know what Consciousness means. Everybody knows it is being known — like that is part of — because how the mind works — it's great. Experiences this assumption — they are known, they're known as someone — and the ego is in thinking that's an individual, that's me. Until you eat from that apple there is Consciousness — is all that — you can name everything. But the "I" is God. "I" is everything. "I" is the Absolute, the eternal. And then we eat the apple. And now it's me and I've fallen from grace. Now I'm on this planet. I'm miserable. I'm just little life. Oh, what do I do?

QRight. And then like because my mind leads to all the things I learned — like so for me the next one was Abraham and his search. And when he searches for God and he looks at — he rejects all the — this is not God, that's not God — and he realizes God is — he's realizing that Consciousness. This is it. This is God. Everything else is secondary.

NIt's interesting. I think all these tales — there's deep wisdom in them. Even the pinch me, I'm dreaming. I find like everything gets reframed somehow. And maybe I'm assigning meaning — and it really is a dumb story. But —

QNo, you're so right. I started like even that — growing up religious — like the devil thing. Never met any. But now I see, oh, it's the thinking. It's that the voice that's speaking to you and the identifying with that. So I was like, I'm recontextualizing that and it's helping me see like, oh, that's maybe what they were pointing to. It's not literal the thing. There's an allegory. It's helpful.

NYeah. And actually, it does feel like — like in the cartoons they used to draw like the devil on your left and the angel on the right. It does feel like that sometimes when the extremely negative or what you would call evil thought appears in your mind — where does it come from? So until you — and now we have a lot of understanding of science and psychology and so — but go back a few hundred years and you say oh demon whispered it to me. That is actually the feeling of it as well. Like where did this come from? Why am I having this suicidal thought or a violent thought or something? Where does it come from?

QYeah. So just so — the thought like okay — do something bad for example or do something good. So you'll see okay I'm not the voice that's saying do something bad. But even the voice that's saying do your homework as a kid — like that's not me either then. Ultimately I'm the one that's aware of both. And I'm neither and it's all happening inside me. Is that the right frame — or more accurate to see that — actually see that?

NYeah we are aware of all that happening. Like I think once we talked about — we had your legs crossed and half your mind was saying I need to uncross my legs and the other was saying —

QI need to keep sitting still.

NGood memory. Wow. Very good. Yes, you're right. And so what you're experiencing is the decision-making. See — the thing about experience — and I think Maharaj described it like this — like when I observe something I become that thing. There's no distance between Self and the object of observation.

Awareness means when something is under observation, Awareness becomes that thing, takes the shape of that thing, is the thing — and there's no other external thing.

QWow, that's very powerful. That is so — I did the experiment this morning when I observed something beautiful in my wife and then I became that happiness. And that versus I was observing the negativity — I became that — but I wasn't conscious of it. But as you say that there's so much power in what is being observed and what's taken to be in that somehow and it's running on default right now as opposed to being more conscious of it.

NYeah. Cuz Reality is nondual. There's never a self-subject and an object. Awareness takes the shape of whatever that is. That is Awareness. That is the Self.

QWow. That's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks.

NThank you. Right. Next is B of B. Is that right?

QIt is. How you doing? Hey, thank you for taking — yeah, great. Thank you for taking my question. I'm not sure if this fits the thread. But I'm just curious and I just need a little bit of guidance on a situation. So I'm sitting around a fire one night and I'm contemplating and I'm in that space. So it's kind of meditative in a sense. But I find myself that I'm outside of my body looking at myself, listening to myself talking, watching my wife and just sort of just being this presence. And it lasted probably about 30 seconds and sort of seamlessly. It was very etheric. It wasn't like it was me outside. But it was just an etheric noticing or observing or sort of vantage point. And then seamlessly I was sort of back in the body. And I realized a little while later I said to Michelle — did I do — did something like happen then? Was I just sort of normal or anything going on? She said no. She didn't notice anything. But it wasn't until the next day when I was having breakfast that the whole thing sort of dawned on me and I got quite emotional about the whole thing. But there was seemingly a separation of sort of mind and body into some sort of Awareness. So I've never been really able to understand it. So I thought I'd join this channel and sort of lean on your wisdom a little bit, find out what might have happened or what it's called or whatever. That's pretty much it.

NYeah. We can weave it into this thread actually. So look again — the pinch test. The pinch we cannot deny. What you experienced is what you experienced. That is how it happened. Like if I take my scientist point of view I say oh that's not possible blah blah. But that's what you experienced. And the experience is wondrous. When we have these kind of experiences they show us that oh what I thought I was cannot be what I am.

QThat's it. Yeah. That's what I've been kind of wanting to ask. It's that it showed me that that's not who I am. Who I am now is not who I am. Some sort of a projection or something like that. It gives you a bit of fire in the belly to pursue it further. It kind of reinforces what all this is about, what I'm doing. So I'm kind of happy about that — that it wasn't an illusion as some people said. It wasn't a psychosis or something strange like that. It was more the real deal.

NYeah. I mean it can be both. Sometimes it can be — but it's still showing you what it's showing you. And that is not untrue. That is true — that if you can observe your own body, your own mind in that way, you cannot be the body or mind. Because whatever you observe —

QRight.

NEven if we take the dualistic view of subject and object then whatever you observe as an object cannot be you the subject. That's where neti neti begins. Not me. That's not me. That's not I. That's not I.

QWhat then? Was that a nondual experience?

NSo as long as — all experience is nondual. But when we think about it in terms of I observing an object that's dual. So I was not that. What was I?

When you get to the bottom of what am I? Then you get to the nondual side of it — that actually all experience when it occurs I am the experience. You are right now the seeing. You're not — there's you and then you're seeing me.

There's the seeing. There's the hearing, the thinking, the feeling. All of that together is Pav.

QYeah.

NCool. That's a good song. And then you go deeper and you say, oh okay. So when there's no seeing, no thinking, none of that, what is Pav?

Okay. So Pav ceases to exist, but you don't cease to exist. Because when Pav returns you know the seeing returns to you, the hearing returns to you. So you are the actual core "I" — the actual "I" is deeper than any persona we put on top, any face we put on top, any stream of experience that's on top.

QGood. Good. That means I'm done searching. I'm happy about that. Thank you. That's brilliant. Thank you.

NThank you. Another — think we have time for one more?

QYeah, sure. Can you talk a little bit — earlier videos — it's called after that awakening experience and how the thinking comes back and all that. Can you talk to that a little bit and kind of go back to when you recorded that — how you felt and so forth — and talk to that?

NSure. Yeah. I think a lot of the problem is actually the search has ended for whoever I think comes to these talks. You've seen it. You've seen the truth. Otherwise you wouldn't listen to me. It's crazy. Sometimes I see my own video. I say why am I — who will listen to this? It sounds so — it's very few to whom this would make sense. Because you have seen the truth or that side of what you are. And what happens is the thinking keeps going around in circles and you're still judging the old kind of self — like Razi was saying — all the problems of the day and you're stuck in the problems. Then you're saying oh I forgot I need to stay with the truth. How do I remember? All that's thinking. And the cure for that is not to get rid of the thinking cuz who will do that? But we look past the thinking. How do you look past the thinking? It's only that you don't give it the highest priority. It's not the basis of your truth. As soon as you're not interested in thought, it slows down. If you're not giving all your energy or whatever focus something — as soon as you pull back that focus, it slows down.

And that's what works. I don't need thought to stop thought. Once you see how it slows down and that becomes natural — when you need to slow it down, it slows down. It's like these gaps. There's a peace just to come from the burden of thought. The brain's working itself up too much. It's trying to figure out what it doesn't need to figure out because the truth you realize is non-conceptual.

It's not intellectual. It is the you that was always there — aware or obvious. So there's nothing to actually figure out. So you see that there's nothing to figure out and I'm thinking too much and the thinking itself slows down just by not being so interested in it because you know it won't deliver you the final click. It won't deliver you the aha. And as it slows down — whatever name you put it — the presence, the peace, the bliss, the Heart cave shines.

And the Heart cave then is not inside. It's all of this is contained in the Heart cave. We've gone from head to heart and then the heart has exploded. And then the thinking is just — yes there's a bit of thinking. It's interesting sometimes. It's useful sometimes. But we're not giving it the highest priority. It does not describe Reality.

QThank you. Exactly what I wanted to hear — the part that you know that it's not going to give you that final — it's not going to deliver to you that final truth, the thinking. And that's a conviction that forms and you know it.

NYou just have to remember it that's all and immediately the interest goes down. You know that — that's the trick. Thank you.

QYeah. Thank you.

NAll right. That's in there for today. Thank you all for joining.

QLet me quick — what was the name of the recording? Sorry. What's the name of the recording?

NNo other knows it better I think.

QAfter that awakening experience from two years ago. I think it's maybe second or third one that you did.

NOh, got it. Got it. Okay. Thank you.

QThat was so helpful, Nabeel. Thank you so much.

NThank you.

QThank you. Thanks. Thank you very much. Bye. Thank you. Thank you, Nabeel.